How to respond to griping parents

[Beavah]

 

Yah, hmmmm....

 

In da original thread, a unique Scouter.Com phenomenon occurred yet again.

 

A new parent to Boy Scouting and a Troop came with a gripe. Dat's natural. All of us experienced scouters know that new parents have a lot to learn about the program, have quite an adjustment to make from Cub Scouting, etc. We also know that a fair number of 'em have a focus that's pretty exclusively on their own kid, over whom they "hover" and for whom they "attack."

 

Now comes da Scouter.Com part. In response to this new parent, da first half dozen or so messages light right up and pour fuel into the Attack Helicopter, while throwin' our fellow volunteers under the bus. The Scoutmaster must be an "arrogant moron." The troop policy is dumb. File an appeal all the way to National. Da troop must be doing other bad things because I disagree with them on this particular thing. Go make a stink at the next Committee Meeting or with da CO.

 

HOLY SMOKE, people! What are we thinking??

 

So now da wound-up new parent figures his kid has been really injured by havin' to spend an extra meeting to get his MB done, and that his troop's leadership are evil. So, armed with what we've told him, he goes off to da district and the troop committee. People take sides. Arguments start. Factions form.

 

Haven't we all seen this, at least all of us who do anything with unit support? Da new parent who feels their troop is "wrong" and launches an attack? There's a posting about a unit coming apart because of adult squabbles about every other week.

 

Da end result is the same... lots of boys get hurt. Units split and fold. Scouting opportunities for dozens of boys and families are lost.

 

All for want of Courtesy. And a willingness to believe the worst of our fellow scouters, rather than the best.

 

Shame on us.

 

Everybody here with any time in da program knows that summer camps vary a great deal on MB quality. There's plenty that use youth counselors and CIT's with little oversight, and plenty that don't even come close to following the requirements sometimes. Heck, we just recently had an example of a camp where the Wilderness Survival counselors burned down a forest during a fire ban.

 

Every experienced scouter here also knows that the best possible MB experience is a personal experience with a local mentor and expert, where a boy, in da words of the BSA's own policies "receives maximum benefit from the knowledge, skill, character, and personal interest of his counselor." Dat's what the program is supposed to be, at its best.

 

If we begin with da assumption that our fellow Scouters are Trustworthy, then this seems like a unit that wants to fully use da advancement program and have the highest-quality experience, even if a camp is cuttin' corners. We certainly don't know any different, eh? We haven't heard from our fellow leader, only from da griping parent.

 

New hovering parents are always goin' to present data in a way that makes their son look better and the referee look like a dolt. Mature adults recognize that referees and Scouters have a tough job, need to make hard calls sometimes, do make mistakes, but do the best they can out of love and care for kids.

 

They deserve our support. Even when we might have made a different call from where we sit.

 

Beavah

 

[GernBlansten]

Yeah, reminds me of the scene from Holy Grail where the villagers want to burn the witch. We are the villagers, you Beav, are Bedevere.

 

http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/grail/grail-05.htm

 

VILLAGER #1:

We have found a witch. May we burn her?

CROWD:

Burn her! Burn! Burn her! Burn her!

BEDEVERE:

How do you know she is a witch?

BEDEVERE:

What makes you think she is a witch?

VILLAGER #3:

Well, she turned me into a newt.

BEDEVERE:

A newt?

VILLAGER #3:

I got better.

VILLAGER #2:

Burn her anyway!

VILLAGER #1:

Burn!

CROWD:

Burn her! Burn! Burn her!...

BEDEVERE:

Quiet! Quiet! Quiet! Quiet! There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.

VILLAGER #1:

Are there?

VILLAGER #2:

Ah?

VILLAGER #1:

What are they?

CROWD:

Tell us! Tell us!...

BEDEVERE:

Tell me. What do you do with witches?

VILLAGER #2:

Burn!

VILLAGER #1:

Burn!

CROWD:

Burn! Burn them up! Burn!...

BEDEVERE:

And what do you burn apart from witches?

VILLAGER #1:

More witches!

VILLAGER #3:

Shh!

VILLAGER #2:

Wood!

BEDEVERE:

So, why do witches burn?

[pause]

VILLAGER #3:

B--... 'cause they're made of... wood?

BEDEVERE:

Good! Heh heh.

CROWD:

Oh, yeah. Oh.

 

[FScouter]

"They deserve our support."

 

Sure, as long as they are open-minded enough to continuous learning and are willing to adapt their processes to follow the Scouting program. Otherwise, off with their heads. Scouting doesn't need adults that dismiss Scouting in favor of their own program.

[Trevorum]

"Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science? "

 

[GernBlansten]

"I am Beavah! King of the Scouters!"

Who made him king?

Well I didn't vote for him.

King Beavah: You don't vote for kings.

Well how'd you become king then?

[Angelic music plays... ]

King Beavah: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Wood Badge Beads from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Beavah, was to carry Wood Badge Beads. THAT is why I am your king.

Trev: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' beads is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

[dan]

Where does one draw the line in the sand with a troop having many options to run a different program than the one the BSA has written?

 

Making a scout do a merit badge twice just seem like a good way to turn boys off of scouting real quick. I know I am only assuming that he did all the work twice, just as anyone else is assuming that he did not do the work twice.

 

We have a troop in the council that requires scouts to attend National Youth Leadership training to be able to be an SPL in the troop, another troop requires scout to attend to obtain their Eagle.

Both are tweaks, while one seems like a good tweak the other ones just does not sit well with me. What have I done about it? Nothing, if I was closer to the troop that I disagree with I would tell them that they are wrong and give them the BSA paper work that I believe says they are doing it wrong. If a parent asked me I would tell them to not send the boy and file a complaint or find another troop, this one is not running a good BSA program.

 

Where do you draw the line? It sure seems to me that the starter of this thread says there is no lines in the sand that should not be crossed, as long as the adult leaders are happy it is all good. After all they are just volunteers. Where is your line that you think should not be crossed?

 

Does the BSA not care? As long as you have a troop they are happy to let the troops do whatever they want as long as they do not hear any complaints.

 

The scouters who are in the program for themselves do not deserve anyone support.

[FScouter]

"Does the BSA not care? As long as you have a troop they are happy to let the troops do whatever they want as long as they do not hear any complaints."

 

Of course they care. In addition to what they already do to keep volunteers on the path, what would you have BSA do? Perhaps they should take leader selection in-house and do annual performance reviews?

[dan]

"Of course they care. In addition to what they already do to keep volunteers on the path, what would you have BSA do?"

 

How about giving the UCs some teeth, and tell them to instruct the troops how to do it correctly.

The idea of performance reviews is a good idea, not sure who would do it.

 

But I really do not believe the people in Texas care about unit operations.

As long as they never hear complaints about them. I hope I am wrong on this, but I see nothing that shows me differently.

 

[Hunt]

Imagine that there's a large troop with a really poor program, adult-led, lots of deviation from BSA practices, extra advancement requirement, their own deviant uniform, etc., etc. Now imagine that new leaders come in, galvanize boy leadership, develop a really good outdoor program, etc. Now imagine that people who preferred the old way quit. The troop is now half its old size, but now all leaders are trained, advancement is being done right, uniforming is good, etc. Do you think the "people in Texas" and at the Council will view this as a success story?

[Beavah]

Do you think the "people in Texas" and at the Council will view this as a success story?

 

Of course not. In fact, da DE might lose his job if he has a couple of those. Loss of numbers of youth served, loss of FOS dollars from those who left. Fewer kids receivin' scouting in any form.

 

All these "line in the sand" "what about a simply awful troop" arguments to me sure look like ego-driven straw men, and pretty judgmental to boot. I'm doin' things right, everybody who does different is "wrong" and should have their head lopped off and fed to da parent BBQ.

 

It just ain't the reality in the field. The reality is there's all kinds of different units, with different strengths and weaknesses, and mostly caring but overworked adults. It's possible to find real fault with any unit. And it's possible to find real successes. And there's a natural tendency of new folks and outsiders to notice da weaknesses first. But it ain't fair, or kind, to comment on anyone's weaknesses until yeh know their strengths.

 

Do I wish all units were better? Sure. But that's based on their outcomes not on methods or tactics. The best units for kids are the ones that keep their eyes on the prize and are willin' to try any changes to procedures so as to do better at developin' kids.

 

Do I have the human resources to make 'em be better, or to replace a SM who gets so focused on some program thingie that he forgets (or never understood) the goals? Nope. Lop off that head, lose that unit, lose those kids and others down the road to scoutin' opportunities.

 

There is one thing, though, that should be a line in the sand. It is dead wrong, poor parenting, and harmful to children to show lack of respect for (or undermine) the other caring adults and authorities in a kid's life. Doesn't matter whether it's your spouse, the schoolteacher, the coach, the game referee or the SM. Teaching character, citizenship, sportsmanship and all that, eh? Doin' it that way always undermines da goals.

 

Beavah

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Well Beavah I disagree with you

 

Not every parent who questions a "questionable" troop policy should be labeled as a "Griping" or helicopter parent. Perhaps they just want to know.

[dan]

Beavah

Are you saying as long as a unit is not losing numbers leave them alone, they must be doing something correct? Do you remember the turf surfers?

 

It goes both ways, if a parent is asking questions they deserve an answer and not being blown off by the adult leadership of a troop.

 

[John-in-KC]

There are a couple of pointers here.

 

First, SCOUTERS gain not only the youth, they gain the parents. Unit serving Scouters have a task to do: They have to educate about the program of their Troop. That means:

 

- How activities work.

- How community service works.

- How the program works.

- How advancement works.

 

- If the parents are untrained in the outdoors, then I believe the Scouters have a secondary duty, especially if they want to recruit the parents as Scouters, to train them in outdoorsmanship!

 

Of course, that means the unit serving Scouters (CC, SM, ASMs, key Committeefolk who work with youth) need to be trained and...

- Understand the basic BSA program.

- Understand where and how they've adapted the program (eg LDS units being back in time for church in the Sanctuary).

 

OTOH, I also think Beavah has a point, and I've crossed the line like everyone here. There are a lot of times where we need the backstory. There are a lot of times where our first question back to someone should be: What did the SM (CC) say when you bought him/her a cup of coffee?

 

That said, there are more than a few units which run left and right of the Scouting centerline? Does that mean they're bad? No. I submit, though, it means the parent needs to be trained locally in "how we implement."

 

There may well be a lot of these problems is folks used that old tool from the WB toolbox,... (wait for it)... COMMUNICATION.

 

My thoughts. Others may disagree.

 

YIS

[Beavah]

Not every parent who questions a "questionable" troop policy should be labeled as a "Griping" or helicopter parent. Perhaps they just want to know.

 

Yah, OGE. Nuthin' wrong with a parent asking questions... or as J-in-KC mentions, every troop can do a better job with parent communications. But if yeh go back and read the original posting and thread, we have "This seems very unfair to the Scout as it teaches them that they are not to be trusted and it is also arrogant of the Troop. " That's not a parent asking questions. That's a parent griping. And when yeh read further, it's clear that the primary gripe is about his kid gettin' awards. That's helicoperting. A scout is capable of askin' his PL/SPL/SM and following up, eh? It's the boy's award, after all.

 

But let's say it was a real question, framed more respectfully. When someone comes with a question to you in person, how often do you respond "well, that other person is a flaming arrogant moron who should be shot?". That's the courtesy issue. It's bad enough when people who saw the game holler at the coach or the referee. We here in the forum didn't even see the game and don't even know da players and we're calling for the coach's head. Worst sort of adult behavior imaginable.

 

Are you saying as long as a unit is not losing numbers leave them alone, they must be doing something correct? Do you remember the turf surfers?

 

Yah dan, there are a very few situations where it's important to pass along information to folks who are responsible for oversight. Severe safety issues, perhaps. Adult criminal activity for certain. Use of the awards program or outdoor program or (as in the other thread) youth leadership program? Hardly.

 

Even when we're in one of those very few situations, like Joni and the accusations of sexual activity on a campout in still another thread, we take the time to figure out how to respond respectfully and appropriately. We ask more questions, to gain a better understandin'. We engage thoughtfully, and try to appreciate the views of the "other side" which we don't have.

 

We don't just start hollerin' and calling people names. Dat's the real issue.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dan]

Beavah

I do not believe I have called for anyone's head on these forums, well at least not in quite a while!

 

But if a poster thinks a SM should be removed they have the same right to say that as you have to say units can do whatever they want, the BSA does not care. You at least have swayed me to believe that, it does make me sad.

 

But I do agree we should agree to disagree in a friendly manner, I try but some things get my dander up and I cannot hold back, but I try.

I feel that almost of the poster here love what the program can do for the youths and we just want the best program for all of them! Some posters are parents making sure that there sons are getting a fair shake. And we owe them to tell them what the book says, even if we do not have to follow it.

 

When I was a scout I was in a non boy lead unit, after seeing what boy lead can be, I feel that units that are not at least not trying to be boy lead are cheating the youth of the real program, along with making youth do merit badges twice because they think it was not done correctly, sorry but it is just wrong. I have read everyone of your posts on this subject and you have not swayed my thinking that is is just adults being old fuddy duddy's trying to control the youths. But you have changed my thiniking on other topics and for that I thank you.

 

I will continue to play this game with the scouts, it is fun, and I love watching them grow into young men so fast!

 

http://www.threefirescouncil.org/coppermine/displayimage.php?pid=631&fullsize=1

 

But I will still try and run the program as I have learned it by reading the SM handbook and the BSA handbook and many other BSA publication, I will not split hairs and say may may mean maybe.

 

If I do not respond to any questions or comments, it is because I am going out of town for the rest of the week with limited Internet access.