Leadership Evaluation---Feedback Welcomed

[OldGreyEagle]

I want to give high praise to your youth, they are living in a bad situation and sometimes extreme times call for extreme measures, and that''s what they did. I would go with what several have suggested, implement the system and be sure to stay on top of what was set out to be done. It''s my thought it wont last long, but as the system isnt followed, have the boys work with the good idea, having consequences to actions. This is how they learn by doing, and if they came up with the idea themselves, how can you claim the troop is boy lead if you refuse their ideas?

 

The system could easily be used as a witch hunt rather easily so each evaluation will need to be proctored to be sure its impartial, which alone will be a revelation. Anyway, at least they came up with something rather than quiting and that counts for a lot

[John-in-KC]

I think that what you said OGE is why I do not like this idea: It can have negative consequences.

 

We are also talking, in other threads here, about the now Policy regarding the term Active. To quote hotdesk

 

If a scout is found not to completing their delegated responsiblities the scout will be placed on probation by a simple majority vote by the Patrol Leader''''s Coucnil. A list of scouts put on probation will be provided to the Troop Committee during the Scoutmaster''''s Report.

 

After being put on probation the ASPL will arrange for a meeting between the scout and the Assistant Senior Patrol Leader, an Assistant Scoutmaster or Scoutmasters, and the scout''''s adult advisor to discuss neccessary improvements.

 

If the discussed improvements are not met by the next Patrol Leader''''s Council meeting the scout will be removed from their position

 

From what I understand of the ACP&P BSA #33088, removing a Scout from his POR is the only thing that can stop the tenure clock for 1C-Star, S-Life, and L-Eagle. It is a serious business, and can have serious consequences.

 

Out in the real world, discharge for cause has some pretty heavy social and psychological overtones to it. Heck, being LAID OFF has heave overtones. Do we really need to expose a 13-16 year old young man to that?

 

Coach, train, mentor, encourage, repeat. Removal should be an extreme measure, used maybe two per cent of the time. I would hope much less.

[hotdesk]

Okay, so the overhelming opinion is that the evaluation is not something that should be supported.

 

How, then, do you get all the scouts you put into positions to actively fullfill their position. Is it something along the lines of if the scouts don''t at first fullfill their position they are not put into a new one until the promise to do better?

 

I hardly believe that everyone else''s troop gets all their scouts to perform their jobs.

[John-in-KC]

hotdesk,

 

Unit Junior Leader Training (old curriculum, if you can find it), or Troop Leader Training.

 

Council Level Youth Leader Training (sometimes called Brownsea 22 or JLT).

 

National Youth Leader Training Conference (at Philmont Training Center, generally reserved for youth staff of a Council YLT).

 

MENTORSHIP... use of the Adult Association Method. 1/1 coaching, as soon as possible after the fact (could that have been done better? How?... get the youth to extract his own lessons learned.

 

Group coaching... practical lessons in leadership.

 

COPE... a low course! ... if they are capable, a HIGH course. Get the PLC working as a team. Get Patrols working as a team.

 

Empowerment: Let the Scribe work with the Treasurer to create the bank deposit, allow the two of them to make the deposit. Let the youth Quartermaster be the one who turns back a tent because it is not clean, have the adult Equipment Coordinator around for when Billy (or his Mom) say "Who the devil are you?" to the Scout and try to reject the answer that that Jack is the QM.

 

More empowerment: Yes, the SM handbook describes your report to the Committee? Have you considered how much of that your SPL can (and perhaps should) make? Have you re-watched the Boy Scout FS tape/dvd recently, where the SPL attend Committee?

 

There''s a host of ideas, I am only scratching the first sixteenth inch of the pile here.

[Venividi]

Hotdesk,

 

I can relate. When I was an SM, there were many scouts that I was unable to get to think about scouting between meetings. Unless an adult was constantly telling them exactly what to do and then making many follow up calls. Your ability to do so is highly dependent on the level of support that you receive from the committee and parents. If your troop does not have a culture of self motivation among the scouts, and an does not have sufficient number of adults willing to mentor scouts in their positions, it might be better not to fill POR''s at all, because the SM cannot do it all.

 

[Eagledad]

>>How, then, do you get all the scouts you put into positions to actively fullfill their position. Is it something along the lines of if the scouts don''''t at first fullfill their position they are not put into a new one until the promise to do better?

[John-in-KC]

hotdesk wrote in part...

 

"I hardly believe that everyone else''s troop gets all their scouts to perform their jobs."

 

We do not. Let us be honest. About 4 years ago, one young man in my Troop, the ASPL at the moment (believe it or not) was being an obnoxious twit at summer camp. He refused to do his duties, he wouldn''t back up the SPL, in fact, he made the Camp SM and the SPLs lives Hell. Our Troop resident Grandpa is an Eagle Scout, a Scoutmaster of many years in his own right, and on our Council Executive Board. We had a rump BOR, trying to sort out the problem, and we had a rump Committee meeting. The boy was disruptive and discouraging to the point of affecting the other youth.

 

We finally made the tough decision, and called for parents. It hurt! We couldn''t keep a boy engaged in things that should have been FUN (he was scheduled for archery, rifle, and wilderness survival MBs that year).

 

Let us be honest: Most boys are going to be in High Direction, Low Support or High Direction, High Support on the pscyhological learning quadrant system (I & II). Adults will have to invest substantial 1/1 time. It''s right to do that. They need it, and us. It''s why we have the Adult Association and Leadership Development methods in Scouting.

 

Finally, remember: This is still "The Game With a Purpose." When we make this regimented and job-like, the youth will run away: They can get that at football and baseball practice, and have a dream of glory.

 

 

[LongHaul]

I am truly amazed at the predominately negative responses hotdesk has received. For years I''ve been reading threads about boys that want credit for POR time when they have done nothing except accept the position originally. We have gone back and forth about National''s position that time accumulates unless the boy has been officially removed from his position AND that time accrued between accepting the position and being removed from the position counts toward POR time served. We have gone on infinitum about Boy Led and empowering the SPL and PLC. Along comes a PLC that wants to do something about boys that accept responsibility but do not live up to the troop''s needs in that position and the majority crys Hold! >>If I was a scout, I''d want to know why this new document wasn''''t given to the SM and SA''''s at the same time as the PLC<< What? If the adults are lacking in their positions we should not expect the boys to hold up their responsibilities. We all know SM LongHaul uses alcohol, never in uniform never around the scouts, but we all know it so bottoms up boys???

John-in-KC with 2265 posts suggests JLT,JLTC,NLT,Mentoring,1 to 1 counseling all the while the clock is ticking, POR time is being accumulated and the responsibilities of the position are not being done. The PLC does not have the minutes for the last meeting, the OA members of the troop didn''t get the OA info that was supposed to be disseminated, the pictures of the last campout were not taken or preserved. John goes on to say >>From what I understand of the ACP&P BSA #33088, removing a Scout from his POR is the only thing that can stop the tenure clock for 1C-Star, S-Life, and L-Eagle. It is a serious business, and can have serious consequences.<< So why all to talk about boys wanting credit for POR not fulfilled? It''s not about living up to your word of honor when you took the job, it''s not about your supporting your troop in the POR you''ve accepted, it''s not about being BOY LED ( all the talk about mentoring by an adult) It''s about hurting someones feeling or blackening someones reputation. Can''t make Johnnie feel bad. Seems to me this mentoring is just a way to keep Adults in the picture, if your mentoring of the example this boy had for this position didn''t show him what was expected what makes you think your mentoring of this scout will help the next scout? Sure you can try and reach this scout but in a boy led troop when do you shoot for lead by example? If your not doing the job your out. The example is if you take a job be ready to actually do it.

hotdesk,

          I don''t have the large number of posts some of my forum fellows have but I do have better than 15 years OTJ as an SM. Mentor your SPL and PLC to see that this doesn''t turn into a power trip. Make sure they know this is a new step and the parameters must be loose at first and can be tightened as examples of positive performance are shown. By that I mean the expectation of a troop scribe should be initially influenced by what kind of example this new scribe has had. As the jobs are done better the expectations can rise to fill troop needs.

LongHaul

[hotdesk]

" That means when you run into the problems of scouts not performing as you would expect, you either have to learn a different way of counseling and guiding, or you have to lower your expectations. "

 

Why would you lower the expectations? This does not make sense to me. Each position has several responsiblities. My concern is not about getting each responsiblity to meet your expectations, but to get each responsiblity performed. If each responsiblity is not being performed then the position is not being fullfilled.

 

Guidance and direction can only do so much. There comes a time where those in charge need to ask if the position is actually getting done. If not a change needs to be made. As a 15 year old I was released from my first real job. It is something that happens. Perhaps if a scout is asked to leave their position then they will learn that each job has responsiblities that need to perform, if not there are consequences.

 

I feel that if a scout is allowed to not actually fullfill are the responsibilites of their position and get credit that the may learn that medicorcey is okay.

[Eagledad]

>>Why would you lower the expectations?

[hotdesk]

SPL: "Mr. Scoutmaster Jon hasn''t showed up to a couple of meetings. He''s the Scribe, so Dillon, the Assistant Senior Patrol Leader, did the attendance."

 

In the other scenario''s presented there is only 1 opition. Call the Scribe and find out why he isn''t coming to meetings. When you find out that he''s having difficulty with homework and has had to miss meetings to get some extra tutoring you say okay and invite him back when he has some free time.

 

Meanwhile, your Assistant Senior Patrol Leader continues to track attendance and perhaps even take the offical notes during the Patrol Leader''s Council meeting. Even though the ASPL has been performing the tasks the Scribe stays in his position (and therefore getting credit) simply because you have no procedures for removing him.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

"Call the Scribe and find out why he isn''t coming to meetings. When you find out that he''''s having difficulty with homework and has had to miss meetings to get some extra tutoring you say okay and invite him back when he has some free time. Meanwhile, your Assistant Senior Patrol Leader continues to track attendance and perhaps even take the official notes during the Patrol Leader''''s Council meeting. Even though the ASPL has been performing the tasks the Scribe stays in his position (and therefore getting credit) simply because you have no procedures for removing him."

 

I don''t know about where you live, but in my area the world is not simply black and white. There is a lot going on out there that our boys are into. BSA gives YOU leeway and does not say My Way or The Highway, why would you do that to boys?

 

When he is there, does the Scribe perform his duties to the best of his abilities? During the SM conference to find out why the Scribe has not been to meetings, the scout could be asked if scheduling for the tutoring could possibly be changed to accommodate Troop meetings. Find out if there is a time frame for the tutoring and an estimate of how many Troop meetings will be missed. Find out if the Scout is still committed to the Troop and his position as Scribe. If he will only be missing a few meetings, I have no problem with the ASPL filling in. If he will be missing a lot of meetings then, and this is where the SM gets to practice actually mentoring, the SM asks the SCOUT what the SCOUT thinks should be done to make sure the duties of the Scribe are covered. The SM and the Scout DISCUSS the situation and come to a MUTUALLY acceptable solution. This could very well be that he will get credit for time served, his position will be taken over by another Scout, and when the Scout can again attend he will get a new POR. Whatever it is, the solution should be one that is worked out between the SM and the Scout.

 

This is a GAME (hence fun) with a purpose. The boys should not be made to feel that if they do not keep some (possibly power hungry) ASPL happy they they will be ridiculed in front of the entire Troop (lists to adults and youth) and possibly kicked out.

 

"What are your views and suggestions?"

 

Although you clearly only want to hear "views and suggestions" that agree with your own, feedback, as they say, is a gift.

 

My suggestion is to dump the evaluation form/process and for the SM to actually do his job and mentor the boys in the Troop. To talk to them all OFTEN on a one-to-one basis. SM should NOT be ONLY talking to their Scouts for advancement purposes. They are allowed to, and even encouraged by BSA, to talk to, and get to know them at other times too. As often as possible (during these conversations) let the SCOUT make the decision on how well he is doing in his position and let the SCOUT come up with ways to improve.

 

Will every Scout preform their POR perfectly? Of course not, they are LEARNING after all. Should every Scout be REQUIRED to be preforming perfectly by the end of their time in their POR? Required to be perfect? NO. However, IF he has received proper training and mentoring, his skills in that particular POR should be IMPROVED by the time he leaves the position. The Scout should have learned something. That is the whole point after all.

 

If you have a scout in a POR who absolutely refuses to do any kind of decent job or to even try, regardless of mentoring and training, then during one of those nice conversations with the SM, the SCOUT should come to the conclusion (with some help from the SM) that he needs to step down.

 

BTW - Who is policing your SPL and ASPL?

 

 

[LongHaul]

Why all this adult mentoring? Where was the example this scout had from the last person in that office? Why are we so adamant that the SPL has the competence to appoint a troop Scribe but not the competence to admit he picked the wrong person and correct his mistake? Do the adults do all the appointments? Boy Run means you work with the team the SM picks? hotdesk has an SPL that proposes giving a scout a detailed description of a position and asking that scout if he is willing to fill that position. If the scout accepts he then has the option to renegotiate the terms and duties with the SM in a SM conference? What ever happened to a chain of command?

LongHaul