Climbing Towers

[OldGrayOwl]

Actually, the title should read"Climbing ON Pioneering project Towers".

 

(Just wanted to clarify that. on edit).

 

What are your views for Scouts climbing on their Pioneering projects, ie, the signal tower located in the Pioneering Merit Badge book?

 

(This message has been edited by OldGrayOwl)

[scoutldr]

The G2SS limits monkey bridges to 5 feet in height and 40 feet in length. Signal towers are not mentioned. An oversight? I don''t know.

[GernBlansten]

I''ve seen towers in excess of 40 feet at a camporee erected by a troop with scouts climbing all over it. Didn''t ask the proud group of adults who erected it for their scouts if there were any rules about height.

[OldGreyEagle]

I thought in Camp School they taught anything over 6 feet in height required anyone on it to be belayed? Could only apply to Camps?

[scoutldr]

Good point, OGE. Could it be that Climb On Safely training is required? (I''ve never taken it, so I don''t know). I just read the G2SS section on climbing and it''s clear it''s intended for rock/mountain climbing. I also found this in bold: "Technical tree-climbing with ropes or harnesses is not authorized as a unit activity." If the trees are lashed together into a tower, does that make a difference?

 

Seems like we need a clarification from National on this point. It''s certainly not clear.

 

[hops_scout]

A similar discussion came up at Jamboree talking about being tied in and such. I believe it was brought up something about if you''re any higher than 6 feet off the ground on any kind of tower, etc that you are expected to be belayed or connected safely in some form.

[ozemu]

Not sure about rules but at work we climb on prof built climbing walls, tree, sand natural cliffs.

 

We ''spot'' people until they get to belay height. ie a belay rope will stretch and the climber will still hit the ground until about 8 foot depending on their weight. Spot means people stand below and prevent the climber hitting the ground too hard.

 

We spot on all low ropes which rarely get about 3 foot.

 

We climb on a few pine tree''s which have good solid branches with no foliage until the very end of each branch. We tie all participants together about 6 foot apart, they wear helmets (protection from other feet) and we encourage sunglasses. We use dynamic rope.

 

Technique is that they clim up one branch and around two. That way they corkscrew around and up and same for coming down. If they fall they hang from branches like Christmas lights. That''s the theory - never seen anyone fall.

 

Would always advocate belay above spotting height but truth be told it is twisted ankles etc through low falls without spotters that is the most reported climbing injury.

 

Are your pines climbable?

[OldGrayOwl]

OK,

but could someone tell/show me where it is written down?

Thanks

OGO

[ozemu]

Thinking more; if you want a rule - what are the rules in your building industry? Got to be a builder on the forums somewhere.

 

BSA would at least be as cautious.

 

So what are the building reg''s for being at height without scaffolding and steel mesh walkways?

 

[scoutldr]

This is the OSHA regulation:

 

"Unprotected sides and edges." Each employee on a walking/working surface (horizontal and vertical surface) with an unprotected side or edge which is 6 feet (1.8 m) or more above a lower level shall be protected from falling by the use of guardrail systems, safety net systems, or personal fall arrest systems.

 

OSHA does not legally apply to scouts and volunteers. It would, however, apply to "employees" (camp staff, ranger, etc)

[OldGreyEagle]

I know this is dated, but I don''t see it having changed much, in my Camp School Book, dated 2004, in the back it lists Program Standards. M-64 states in part

 

"... Except for a COPE wall event or high beam activities, any time a camp participant is engaged in an activity that is 6 feet or more above the ground level, the person is belayed. COPE wall events and high beam activities are carefully spotted"

 

That''s where the 6 feet thing and belaying comes in. Now, it does say "Camp Participant", so members of a Troop off on a private wood lot building a monkey bridge for the Pioneering merit badge would not seem to apply. I know it would kill my pioneering spirit if after endless hours of wrapping and frapping I had to get into a climbing harness and be belayed before I could cross the bridge. Then again, once I am in court on the charge of negligence because a non-belayed scout lost his grip, slipped off the bridge and is a paraplegic, the belay thing makes more sense.

 

I have seen plenty of plans for monkey bridges and signal towers, what I havent seen is plans for the belay apparatus.

 

To test the structure, it has to be used. Climbing all over a structure you made and is tall, is the best recruiting tool possible Monday at school and retention tool. A story about the kid with the broken neck after falling off a bridge pretty much puts a damper on future recruiting.

 

The answer seems to be in the adult leaders judgement of what is safe and proper behavior.

[EagleInKY]

We''ve built signal towers as a pioneering project. The boys built the structure, supervised by older scouts with some adults validating the work. We built two structures, about 12-15 foot high, and let the scouts climb up. We even had an old-fashioned signaling competition. The boys LOVED it. We had some reasonable rules - only 2 scouts on the structure at a time, no horseplay, etc. An adult was watching it at all time. I was never worried. Frankly, if we cancel every activity out of fear of lawsuits, we might as well pack it all up and go home.

 

my $0.02

[epalmer84]

I have the COPE manual at home- I will try to find it and see what it says.

 

When I was a youth in the mid-80s, we built a tower for Pioneering merit badge during summer camp. The Scouts were climbing all over it and someone started kicking off chunks of bark. Some of this ended up in one Scout''s eye and did some damage.

 

Ed

[Ohio_Scouter]

FYI...Here''s what it says in the beginning of Chapter 7, Belaying and Belay Signals, of Topping Out: A BSA Climbing/Rappelling Manual, 2006 printing.

 

"Belaying in the BSA. BSA climbing/rappelling guidelines require that any climber or rappeller more than shoulder height above the ground must be protected by a belayer. Climbers and rappellers may be belayed either from the top of the climb or from the ground. Anyone who is bouldering--practicing climbing moves closer to the ground or beginning a climb--does not need to be tied into a belay rope, but should be protected by spotters positioned to lessen the impact of a short fall."

 

"Safety on Edges. Cliff or rock edges can be hazardous because of the possibility of falling or of knocking stones loose and sending them down toward people below. Anyone standing or working within a body-length of the edge of a cliff (6 feet or less) must be tied in to a belay, an anchor, or a safety line. Before climbing/rappelling activities begin, instructors make sure cliff edges are clean, carefully removing as much loose material as is practical and providing some type of edge protection for the rope."

 

[mk9750]

Our Troop now boasts two adults who are the Climbing Instructors for the Council. So now we do things by the book (and that is a good thing).

 

However, a long time ago, well before Climb On Safely and Topping out, we used to make a signal tower every year. It served three purposes - A pioneering project, A tool to help us spot open parking spaces while our Troop directed traffic for our CO''s festival, and as a publicity / recruting tool to show the parish, and the boys in the parish, something cool we do.

 

The last year we did this, we made the best signal tower in history. OK, that might be a bit of hyperbole, but hopefully, you get my point. At any rate, the thing was amazingly well built. The boys did a terrific job on it. As we started taking it down, all of the relatively minor stuff was done, and the guys went to take a quick break. Us adults decided to handle the big stuff while the boys were away, just in case.

 

Although I believe any of the adults there would have recognized the danger of the next move if a boy tried it, and would never have allowed a boy to do this, we had one adult, working from the bottom, going up a ladder, cutting all of the lashings of the main cross members. He was at the top of the ladder, @ 12 feet high, when someone looked up just as he cut the last lashing supporting the structure. I have no clue how he thought the sides were going to stand by themselves, but just as one guy looked, the guy on the ladder yelled. The timbers all fell backwards, and his ladder litterally looked like it was balanced in mid air for a few seconds. We watched as he tried to climb down the ladder as it started to fall, probably getting down a couple or three steps. But he probably hit the ground from 8 - 10 feet.

 

Considering all of the possiblities, he got away with only minor injuries - A broken ankle, a couple of broken ribs, and a punctured lung. But we learned a powerful lesson that day. Actually, a couple. First, as soon as Climb On Safely was introduced, our Troop led the way in becoming trained. We have the two Instructors, 6 certified adult leaders, and numerous boys who have been through all of the same training, but cannot be certified because of their age. Second, we all learned that every person involved in an activity deserves the same dillegence. I swear to you that had a boy been up there, we would never have let him get that far. But because it was an adult, we let down our guard. We intend for THAT never to happen again. And third and fourth, we found out what values youth leadership and 1st aid training are, as the then Assistant Senior Patrol Leader was remarkable taking charge as we administered 1st aid.

 

It wasn''t my ankle or ribs or lung, so maybe this is easy for me to say. But in the long run, we got a lot out of that accident. But I can assure you that one of the things we would never do now is to allow anyone over shoulder height not to be harnessed. We still do signal towers, and we do a number of climbing and rapelling events every year. Is there still danger? Absolutely. Have we done everything we can to mitigate the possiblity of harm while we do a dangerous activity? You bet. And EVERYONE in our Troop, including adults, uses the buddy system for practically everything now. We all know we are responsible for everyone, but knowing that you are responsible for SOMEONE just seems more powerful.

 

Mark