Are they ALL important?

[BrentAllen]

Congratulations, Beavah - you are officially the first Scouter to call me gay. Now there is a real example of friendly and kind. If someone is going to throw names at me, I would expect them to be up front about it and not hide behind some screen name. But I guess that is your style, eh?

Adios, amigo.

[Eagledad]

Oh for pete sakes Brent, he was talking in the third person of scouts in the general term talking about their SM in the general term. Adios Amgio? That is not your style.

 

Barry

[GernBlansten]

Aw Brent, don''t go away mad.

[Eamonn]

It''s late and past my bedtime!!

I posted:

"That''''s partly true, but the uniform is more than a set of clothes...It is a symbol of the boy''''s commitment to Scouting - his acceptance of Scouting''''''''s ideals and willingness to live by them."

Beavah posted:

"Yah, it can be that. We hope it becomes that, eh? That''''s the real uniform method - the one that''''s worn in the heart and not on the body."

I REALLY don''t want to get hung up on this uniform thing!! But...

In the troop OJ joined where the SM said "We don''t wear..."

Most parents are going to be happy to save the money that can be saved.

The Scouts really don''t have the choice to wear or not wear the correct uniform.

In some ways the message is "Yes there is something that you should be doing, but it''s OK if you don''t".

Due to his involvement in the OA OJ choose to wear the full correct uniform to OA functions.

He had the uniform, so getting it was never a problem.

The uniform was the same one for the OA as it was for the Troop meetings.

He was the same Scout for both.

But for Troop meetings he was happy to throw the Scout Shirt in the car and go.

But for the OA he spent time making sure his uniform was correct and looked good.

A lot of the Scouts at the OA functions didn''t wear the full uniform. There of course could be lots of reasons why they as individuals didn''t. I''m not passing any sort of judgment on them.

But as a method it seems to me that the Lodge Advisor and the different Advisors that OJ worked with somehow managed to drive the point home.

Sure a lot of it was peer pressure. The Scouts he hung out with at OA weekends all wore full uniforms and a lot of them went on to become officers in the Lodge and the section. One went on to become NE-Region Chief.

There never was any talk of anyone being sent home for not wearing the uniform and as far as I know there was no consequence good or bad for wearing or not wearing it.

Could it be that OJ wanted to show that his commitment to the Lodge was something special to him?

The Scouts in the Ship are happy to wear both Sea Scout uniforms. We don''t wear the Whites very often!! At times the black shoes are a problem. It does seem that not wearing them very often makes them more special!!

Could it be that Boy Scout Troops wear the uniform more times than they really need too?

We do wear the working Sea Scout uniform a lot and so far it has never been a problem.

The Sea Scouts do have the choice (Being part of Venturing) They choose what to wear. We as a Ship don''t have any rules or regulations that deal with uniforming.

The Scouts seem happy to wear the uniforms because they are Sea Scouts.

Ea.

Brent,

I really don't think anyone was doing any name calling.

Many youth members use the term "Gay" to describe things they don't like or maybe don't understand.

OJ has had the audacity to tell me that he thinks that the Rolling Stones are "Gay".

Please don't take it to heart. I'm 100% sure that no insult was meant or intended.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[ASM857]

We work with the boys at meeting''s and through BOR on proper uniform, we expect all scouts to be in full uniform at first class. As Beavah an Old grey Eagle stated we use uniform as a buildup, not a deterant. In our district their is a saying any scout is a welcome scout, uniformed or not. The uniform is a wonderfull aspect and I ware my full uniform with knot at every function, but it is hard for a boy that''s allowed at school to walk around in ripped shorts, and t-shirts with holes to a full uniform the same night. Maybe I''m too lax but I would rather have them show up, participate and learn something with or without full uniform.

 

YIS

Doug Buth

[Hunt]

"Well, when he was initially assigned to command the troops after the disaster as Kasserine Pass one of the first things he did was institute correct uniforming. "

 

Of course, Patton didn''t wear the correct uniform himself, so I''m not sure that''s a good analogy.

Personally, I think full uniforming is good, but I don''t think it is as important as the other methods, just as I don''t think all laws are equally important.

Let me ask this question: for those who have seen uniforming improve over time in a troop, what was the cause? Adult leadership, youth leadership, improvement in other elements leading to more esprit? I''d be curious to know.

[John-in-KC]

OK, speaking as an old soldier, and as a student of military history,

 

General Officers, certainly through World War II, were allowed great deference in the design and implementation of their uniforms. General Patton, through most of his life, had his made by London uniformers ... a shop that had outfitted, Sir William Howe and Cornwallis.

 

For that matter, regimental commanders were allowed certain deference in the construction, fit, and finish of uniform accessories, particularly leather. More than one officer had to re-invest in his Sam Browne Belt, shoes and riding boots because the shade of his leather wasn''t the commands'' standard.

[Eagledad]

>>Let me ask this question: for those who have seen uniforming improve over time in a troop, what was the cause? Adult leadership, youth leadership, improvement in other elements leading to more esprit? I''''d be curious to know.

[eisely]

I have to agree with those who do not want to turn away youth because they may not be able to afford a complete uniform. One partial solution to that is to operate a uniform exchange whereby parents donate uniforms their boys have outgrown to a pool that younger boys can use.

 

The comments about General Patton are interesting. When I was in the US Army in the 60''s the uniform regulations specifically allowed general officers (brigadiers and above) to customize their uniforms. Patton was a notable example in WWII and many general officers that I observed directly also customized their uniforms somewhat.

 

Another notable example in the American civil war was General George Armstrong Custer. For all his failings, and even barbarity, as an indian fighter, Custer was one of the best, and youngest, cavalry commanders in the untion army in the civil war. He was jumped several ranks ahead of officers very senior to him to the rank of brigadier a few weeks prior to the battle of Gettysburg. One of the less appreciated fights in that three day battle was a cavalry fight a few miles behind and to the East of the primary union lines at the same time as Pickett''s charge. Custer led an outnumbered union cavalry force in victory over the much vaunted confederate cavalry led by Jeb Stuart. Custer was noted for his flamboyant uniforms, but in his instance they served a real purpose. One of the things he did when he was promoted was have a uniform made for him of his own design. The reason was that he wanted his own troops to be able to easily identify him in battle and therefore follow him.

[MarkS]

Yep... when it comes to delivering the scouting program it is very helpful to have a little more insight than the ability to quote a fact sheet.

 

Sure our unit requires that full scout field uniform be worn to all troop meetings, activities, and when traveling to and from outings and campouts unless otherwise directed by the SPL (as advised by the SM). However, the lack of wearing a uniform is not a prohibition to participating in our unit either. The boys who don''t wear a uniform when directed by the SPL, will just have to deal with the friendly reminders from the SPL, SM, and ASMs.

[Eamonn]

I never have been big on rules, regulations and Troop bylaws.

My thinking being that we have all we need in the Oath and Law.

I think it''s worth looking at the methods and thinking about how they pertain to each individual Scout.

Each Scout sees things differently.

Each Scout "Owns" his own Best.

Some Scouts might have a hard time or not have a lot of interest in advancement.

Some Scouts relate far better to adults than others.

You can go over the list of methods and think how they fit or don''t fit each Scout.

For the sake of argument, I wonder if a Troop had a group of Scouts who showed no interest in advancement, how many of us would be willing to say "Advancement doesn''t work. Let''s not bother with it?" I''m guessing very few!!

I''ll bet that most of us would work with each Scout trying to find where his interest lies and work the program around him. We find ways of making Personal Growth happen.

It''s kinda easy to say that the uniform method just don''t work. I''ll agree 100% that at times it''s not easy.

Still working with one Scout at a time, helping him find reasons why he wants to wear the uniform is surely the way to go.

Of course there could be reasons why a Lad doesn''t wear a uniform, but we can do what we can to overcome them.

The thing that worked best for us was having a big monthly inter-patrol competition. Points were awarded for winning games, advancement -Just about anything and everything. That included the uniform inspection at the start of each meeting.

The SPL choose who did the inspecting.

We never had a need for any rules or the like. Peer pressure worked just fine.

Ea.

[BrentAllen]

We use the Uniform Method in a positive manner, and have never turned a boy away or prohibited him from participating in any event* because he was out of uniform. I have always told the boys and parents, in both the Pack and Troop, that if they are coming from another event and don''t have time to change, I would much rather them attend the meeting out of uniform than miss the meeting. They know they are expected to be in full uniform, otherwise. If they can''t afford a uniform, I will make sure they get one at no expense to them.

*The one exception is Color Guard duty - they must be in uniform to be part of the Guard.

 

"Let me ask this question: for those who have seen uniforming improve over time in a troop, what was the cause? Adult leadership, youth leadership, improvement in other elements leading to more esprit? I''''d be curious to know."

 

From my experience, expectations to follow BSA standard, set by the SM. The SM sets the bar and it filters down. If the SM does a good job of explaining what is expected and why (either to the boys directly or to the PLC), the boys will follow his lead and it will then become just a part of the program. When a new boy comes to join the Troop, the SM explains that the Troop wears the full uniform - he hears the expectation up front - when he hears all the other important information about joining.

 

If I see a Scout missing something, I will usually ask "Hey Michael, where''s your belt?" "Oh, I couldn''t find it before we left." "OK, give yourself a little more time to get ready next week, alright?" "Yes sir, Mr. Allen." End of discussion. He may hear the same thing from his Patrol Leader as well. If he doesn''t get some feedback for missing part of his uniform, he may assume that is acceptable and repeat it.

 

I volunteer to be a part of the Boy Scouts of America, to help run a Troop and a Pack. While the Troop is boy run and boy lead, I expect it to operate as a BSA Troop, following the Aims and Methods. Those are my expectations. If the boys decide they want to run things differently than outlined by the BSA, they are going to have to find another leader. The Troop is boy run and boy lead, not boy altered.

[acco40]

from scoutmaster.org (and fwiw, I agree)

 

UNIFORMING IN BOY SCOUT TROOPS

 

The Scouting program in the Boy Scouts of America has three specific objectives, commonly referred to as the "Aims of Scouting." They are character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. To accomplish these aims, the BSA has designed eight methods in Boy Scouting. It is important that you know and use the methods of Boy Scouting. Other methods are good, but they may bring different results -- results possibly quite different than we are seeking. One of these methods is uniforming.

 

Over the years, Scoutmasters have noticed that Scouts who truly try to live by the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives seem to be moved by the spirit to wear the Scout uniform (if they can afford it). Why? What is so magical about these pieces of cloth? Why would the BSA make wearing certain cloths part of the eight methods of Boy Scouting? I would like to take a few minutes to investigate this method to see what it brings to the table.

 

The uniform supports the first Aim of Scouting, that of character development. The uniform is a symbol of the boy''s commitment to Scouting - his acceptance of the BSA''s ideals and willingness to live by them. The boy knows that when he is in that uniform he is expected to act in accordance to the values of the BSA and the values he has made an oath to live by. This purpose of uniforming is as much a part of the method as uniting him with his troop or patrol. Boy Scouting is an action program, and wearing the uniform is an action that shows each Scout''s commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting.

 

The Scouts identification grows even greater when it is realized that the uniform gives the Scout an identity in a world brotherhood of youth who believe in the same ideals.

 

Scouts often do not have a complete understanding of Scouting or the commitment they have chosen to make. We need to communicate to them that that the uniform is a symbol of their commitment to Scouting, to the BSA, to their Council and to other Scouts and, not wearing the uniform is a sign to others that they may lack that commitment.

 

The uniform also makes the Scout troop visible as a force for good and creates a positive youth image in the community. People who are not Scouts recognize the Boy Scout uniform. To the community the uniform represents a welcome image, a reminder that not all kids are bad, and not all gangs are violent.

 

Uniforming also supports the second Aim of Scouting, that of citizenship training. In that it contributes to patrol and troop spirit. Boys who wear the uniform are put on a par with each other. Fancy clothes purchased by rich parents are gone as are clothes that bind the boy to other organizations and gangs. The uniform helps to build esprit de corps and gives the troop and patrol an identity with a program different from what the boy is exposed to outside of Scouting. However, that ''uniformed Scout'' represents more to himself, to his fellow Scouts and to the public as a whole, than simply belonging to his patrol or his troop. Used broadly, citizenship means the boy''s relationship to others. He comes to learn of his obligations to other people, to the society he lives in, to the government that presides over that society. The BSA uniform unites the boy with this larger goal by uniting him with the organization whose aim is that goal: the BSA.

 

Uniforming also contributes to the third aim of personal and mental fitness. In Boy Scouting, the Scouts must satisfy certain requirements to achieve rank and responsibility within the program. These requirements often require the mastering of a physical or mental skill. When the requirements are satisfied an award or badge is earned. The uniform gives the Scout a reason to take pride in the way he looks, and in the badges and awards that testify to his achievements.

 

As for adults wearing uniforms, all I can say is what Baden-Powell said: It is largely a matter of example. Show me a slackly-dressed Troop and I can "Sherlock" a slackly-dressed Scoutmaster. Think of it, when you are fitting on your uniform or putting that final saucy cock to your hat. You are the model to your boys and your smartness will reflect itself in them. Instead of using uniforming as a club that might prevent a boy from participating in Scouting, when you are with the Scouts, even for the simplest of things, put on your uniform. It raises the moral tone of the boys and it heightens their estimation of their uniform when they see it is not beneath a grown man to wear it. It also heightens their estimation of themselves when they find themselves taken seriously by men and women who also count it of importance to be in the same brotherhood with them. As Scouters we must constantly remind ourselves that it isnt so much what we say to the Scouts that they will emulate, but what we do. The Scouts are told by other leaders, by their handbooks and by each other to look to us as role models. And they will, they will do what do and wear what we wear.

 

It is important that each of us fully understands the importance of each of the eight methods of Boy Scouting. I hope that after reading this discussion on how uniforming directly contributes to the three aims of Scouting that you have a better understanding of the often neglected and misunderstood method of uniforming.

 

Yours in Scouting,

Bill Nelson, Grand Canyon Council

May 27, 2002

 

[Gonzo1]

Brent,

I agree, ALL methods are important. I strongly encourage the uniform method. My son and I wear complete uniforms to all scout function. Yes, we even go camping in our uniforms.

I cringe when I see our SM, he hardly ever wears his uniform, and when he does, it''s so badly wrinkled, it looks as though he ironed it with a hard cold rock.

 

I agree with Ed, I''m not losing any sleep if a scout doesn''t wear his uniform.

 

I wish we had the 70''s uniform, but that won''t happen. I hope national will adopt a uniform shirt to go with the switchback pants. Something everyone will like and wear.

 

For anti-uniform folks, try sending your kid to football with his jersey and pads, but a motorcycle helmet and blue jeans instead. See what happens next.

 

 

Gonzo

[Eagledad]

>>For anti-uniform folks, try sending your kid to football with his jersey and pads, but a motorcycle helmet and blue jeans instead. See what happens next.