Are they ALL important?

[John-in-KC]

I think most of us here could do with reading Lisa''s post slowly and carefully before continuing this thread! Her point about teaching boys to "choose their battles wisely" out of adults mandating a broken starch class A uniform rings very true.

 

Folks should also go back, reread Beavah''s post (just ahead of Lisa''s) and concentrate on the next-to-last paragraph.

 

Together, these two bits of writing say much of what I want to say to the Uniform Method of Scouting. As to the fabric, fit, finish, and quality of specific articles of clothing, well, I will leave that to lie... for now.

[Eagledad]

>>Y''''all seem to think the uniform is only to be decided upon by the boys.>Tell me, what do you think B-P was saying when he stated "Show me a poorly uniformed Troop, and I will show you a poorly uniformed Scoutmaster"?>If the Uniform Method was left totally up to the boys, why would B-P say that? What would it matter what the SM wore?

[evmori]

Sure we should be wearing the uniform. But in the great scheme of things, this, in my opinion, is the least important of the methods. I wear mine to all Troop meetings & wherever else it is appropriate. I encourage the Scouts to wear theirs. But I don''t lose any sleep if they don''t.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[BrentAllen]

Maybe our experiences are just too different to find any common ground here. I''ll try to give my experience a little better, through what we experienced at our previous troop.

 

1. The uniforming there was what I consider pretty lax, but some here might consider it normal. They had set a troop policy of any green or khaki pants or cargo short, or dress shorts, but no blue jeans. About 1/3 of the troop wore Scout pants or shorts, the rest a hodge podge (including the leaders) but also including blue jeans. It was announced we were going to have special guest Al Townly visit, so I expected everyone to look their best. The one Eagle Scout in the troop at that time shows up in his Scout shirt and blue jeans, and he wasn''t the only one. Nothing is said to correct this, from anyone. Even though the Troop had voted to wear a neckerchief, about 1/3 would wear it, and none of the adults would.

 

2. At the camporee opening ceremony formation, I pulled the SPL and a couple of older boys over to view a Troop that was in full uniform, with custom Troop neckerchiefs, and pointed out how they looked like a really united team and Troop. I asked what they thought about it, and if they thought our Troop could ever get there. They just shook their heads and said "No way!"

 

I''m curious to hear what you think an adult leader should do in those situations. Should he just sit back and wait for them to come around? Should he just give up and say it''s the boys decision? Gern (sorry, I don''t mean to be picking on you) states his troop has had the same "sloppy" uniforming for 50 years - how long do you wait for the boys to improve?

 

If we see boys setting up their tents wrong, would we let them keep doing it? If they did a terrible job planning their meals for a campout, would we let them keep doing it? Yes, we let them fail and then learn from their mistakes, but they way y''all are talking about the Uniform Method, I don''t see you treating it the same - you don''t ever point out mistakes, they don''t ever improve. You just let is keep sliding. Heaven forbid you actually have an inspection! The boys might have a breakdown and run away, to never return!

 

How would each of you handle to two above situations?

[John-in-KC]

As to 2) Sounds like you took a Rump PLC, and got feedback from the Rump PLC. Feedback is a Gift. What Barry said: Scoutmaster must be the example in all things. This includes "choose your battles wisely." Is uniforming the most important Scouting issue in your Troop right now? If it is, it''s time to battle. If it''s not, then use all your resources where they matter the most.

 

The cost of doing business with the Patrol Method is that if they make a bad call, you let them run with it until the 2d/3d order consequences get big enough that you have to refocus the PLC. Yes, I understand uniform isn''t supposed to be voted on, but that''s what you let them do, in fact.

 

Your best course of action at the moment may be to simply be an example of correct uniforming yourself.

[Eagledad]

>>At the camporee opening ceremony formation, I pulled the SPL and a couple of older boys over to view a Troop that was in full uniform, with custom Troop neckerchiefs, and pointed out how they looked like a really united team and Troop. I asked what they thought about it, and if they thought our Troop could ever get there. They just shook their heads and said "No way!"

 

I''''m curious to hear what you think an adult leader should do in those situations.

[acco40]

Does anyone remember George C. Scott in Patton? After the first significant meeting between the German and American troops (Kasserine Pass) the US GIs suffered heavy casualties and were humiliated. Well, when he was initially assigned to command the troops after the disaster as Kasserine Pass one of the first things he did was institute correct uniforming. Does how one wears the uniform affect how well one can fight? Well, yes and no. I can fight equally well (on ineptly) in a blue or orange shirt. But, a proper uniform does breed esprit de corps and respect. After Patton's changes (albeit not just in uniforming) when the Germans and American next met, in some cases only weeks later, the U.S. forces performed considerably better.

 

The best thing the adults can do is to wear the uniform proudly. As Scoutmaster, I do this regularly. To some extent, the Assistant Scoutmasters do as well. On the committee side, I can only get the Committee Chair (an Eagle Scout) and the Advancement Chair (on occasion) to wear the uniform. The rest of the committee thinks it is a big joke when I request that they wear the uniform. The boys see this and make their own judgment calls on the uniform.

 

My own boys, before many troop meetings, ask me do I have to wear all of my uniform?. I always give them the same response. You don't have to do anything. You don't even have to go to the meeting but I expect that when one attends a Scouting function, one wear the appropriate Scouting uniform.

 

I've also said that there are many ways to reach the aims of Scouting. However, if one does not use the 8 methods, it isn't Scouting. As registered leaders, we've promised not to just try and reach the aims of Scouting but to do so by using the methods of Scouting. The uniform is one of those methods. Very simple, no? No more, no less important than any of the other methods.

 

Besides, as one who is "style challenged" having a uniform to wear makes my day easier. :-)

 

 

(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Beavah]

The Methods aren't tools to pick and choose from. The are ingredients for the program, as in a cake. You can try to make a cake without all the ingredients, but is it going to be as good as cake made with all of them?

 

Yah, this I think was the most insightful comment of this thread, eh?

 

Once upon a time there was a guy named Bob. Bob was new to making cakes, so he went out and bought the Baker Society of America's Uniform Cake Recipe. This was perfect! In two pages of detailed instructions with enumerated ingredients, Bob only had to Follow The Recipe in order to come up with a good-tasting cake. It took him a few tries and some training because there were parts of the Recipe he just didn't understand, but he eventually came up with a tasty cake. Bob became a Believer.

 

Bob shared his great depth of cake knowledge with all and sundry. He would occasionally get replies back from places like Leadville, CO (high altitude) or Tucson, AZ (low humidity) that his cake recipe didn't work right there and they found that adjusting the ingredients produced better results. Bob would grow upset and say that they just didn't understand cake baking, and if they would only be Obedient and Follow the Recipe then they would get the same results as him because he always got them.

 

Then he started running into all kinds of other cake bakers. Some of them would actually substitute ingredients like egg whites for whole egg or whole flour for bleached white flour, claiming that it was healthier of all things! Didn't they know that the Baking Society of America had already spent years and years figuring out what a cake should be? Then there were those folks who would add or subtract ingredients despite the warnings in the recipe. They would add pudding or chocolate chips or a touch of mint extract and leave out vanilla. Adding to the recipe??! Experimentation is BAD! It might yield mixed results! And sure enough, the experimenters had failures.

 

But the nerve of them. They also claimed to have successes. They actually felt that some of their cakes tasted better than his! And they would prattle on about how cake baking was about the Aims of good taste, and the fun of learning, rather than the recipe used.

 

Then old-timers would jump in and talk about all the different Standard Recipes the Baking Society of America had put out over the years, and how they still used some of the old ones!

 

Worst of all were the self-proclaimed "experts" that called themselves "pastry chefs". They not only didn't use The Recipe, they didn't use any recipe at all! Instead, they would grab ingredients seemingly on a whim and whip them together to make different cakes. Not just one cake, all kinds of different cakes for different circumstances. Infuratingly, they would condescend to Bob, and try in their highfalutin' ways to explain things like gluten content, proper viscosity and moisture, and thermodynamics of baking. One even had the nerve to tell him that his oven must be running a bit hot, and that his cake would be better if he baked it at 25 degrees cooler on his dial. The nerve! To claim they could tell by looking at the outcomes that the Recipe should be adjusted! Besides, how could they claim that all these different roll-your-own things were even cakes? When he wanted cake, he wanted the standard Baking Society of America cake cooked at the Baking Society of America Temperature Setting. That's all anyone should want. That's what we agreed cake should be.

 

He wrote to the Baking Society of America, but they refused to kick all the self-proclaimed "pastry chefs" and other experimenters out of the Society. In fact, they took no action at all. Some of those self-proclaimed pastry chefs even claimed to have National-level contacts within the Baking Society of America, but he didn't believe that.

 

Despite Bob's warnings, the BSA even started offering a lightweight, zip-off mocha chocolate option as part of the Standard Cake Recipe. He admitted he and his kids liked the Mocha option, but not too loudly - that would mean that all those self-proclaimed pastry chefs who had been making that modification for years actually might be right.

 

Bob was Trustworthy and Loyal and Obedient. He would make sure that anyone who ate a cake around him only got the Standard BSA Recipe. Anybody who wanted something else could go somewhere else.

 

------

 

Recipes have an important place, especially for beginners. They're a startin' point, and a reference point.

 

For me, I want Scouters and Scouts to experiment beyond da recipes, though. Mix in peanut butter. Try different frosting. Add strawberries, substitute cherries, try mixin' in jelly beans. Even take a look at what foreign pastry chefs are doin', eh?

 

That will make for some really ugly cakes sometimes. And for a few great ones. And maybe a few that work better for one particular group, or location, or a boy with special dietary needs. Along the way, it will give kids insight on what it takes to develop expertise - a real appreciate for depth of knowledge over rote recipes.

 

Does everybody need to be a Pastry Chef? Nah. Recipes are good things, especially for something fairly unimportant that we only do occasionally. But they're just a tool, eh? They are the beginning, not the end.

 

Beavah

 

[edited for replicant quotes](This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eamonn]

I''m going to try and not get hung up on the Uniform method.

I see all the methods as being important.

But having said that I do see them as goals.

Something we and the unit should work toward.

Scouting Ideals.

This entails a lot more than just saying a few words at the start of the meeting.

The ideals define what a Scout should strive to be: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, reverent, mentally awake, morally straight, physically fit,and prepared.

This method permeates everything Scouts do, defining acceptable behavior, challenging the Scout to do his best, and even to do better than his best.

It is a good and worth while goal, but even the best Scouts and best Scouter''s are not going to manage to live up to it 100% of the time.

Patrols:

The Patrol is the basic unit of Scouting. It is a perfectly sized group of Scouts with a common purpose. When properly formed, the Patrol is more than a group; it''s a team and each member has a job to do. In a Patrol, the Scout first begins learning about citizenship, making decisions, and doing things for himself. He counts on the other members of his Patrol to do their part, just as they count on him to do his. Membership in a Patrol leads to opportunities for leadership, so this method is also important to other methods in this list. Everything in Scouting can and should be done using the Patrol method, and Patrols should be more than just a list of names. The group should be real, and it should have real things to do. Its leaders should be real leaders, with real authority.

Of course there might be times and reasons why a Troop might not be able to have "Real Patrols" I''m thinking of newly formed units or units that have suffered from poor leadership and dwindling numbers.

Outdoors:

Doing things outdoors are what Scouting is all about. In the course of doing the things Scouts do, a boy cannot help but go into the outdoors. In fact, it''s impossible to properly conduct a Scouting program without going outdoors. As much as possible, and as often as possible, Scouts should get out of buildings. They should follow the dirt trails, camp in the woods, swim in the lake, and all of the other things boys have done for 100 years.

A Scout program that doesn''t include going into the outdoors is not much of a program. It can''t be much fun either. Scouting is not school. We don''t learn things in Scouting by sitting in a classroom - we learn them by going out and doing them!

Still there are times when going outdoors is not such a good idea and a few of us are not so happy being out when it''s darn cold!!

Advancement:

While I happen to think this is the most abused method.The advancement method is nearly as pervasive as the ideals of Scouting. Advancement gives the Scout things to do when they go outdoors, and it gives Patrols something to work together on. Advancement also contributes to a Scout''s personal growth, provides opportunities for leadership and adult associations, and a reason to go outside.

Advancement in Scouting is specifically designed to present every boy with a big challenge, broken up into smaller and smaller challenges. A Scout learns to set goals, develop plans for meeting those goals, to motivate himself to do what needs to be done, to always try his best and keep trying, and even that his perception of what he can do is often wrong. The Scout learns about his personal abilities and limitations, and ways to overcome those limitations and take advantage of those abilities.

Please note everything is about the Scout not the unit!!

Personal Growth:

Much of what we do in Scouting involves boys facing unfamiliar territory and learning to cope with it. This is what we call personal growth. Every Scout develops greater confidence through experience and advancement. He learns to have confidence in himself; to challenge himself, and to learn from his failures.

Every step along the way, a Scout is faced with a challenge that has to be overcome. In the process, he learns to look at himself differently. He stops saying "I can''t" and begins to look for ways to say, "I can." As his confidence grows he looks for greater responsibilities and challenges. He learns to make real decisions.Each Scout will develop at his own pace and we need to understand this.

Adult Association:

From time immemorial youth have looked to adults for guidance. Sons look to parents for an example to live by. Students look to teachers for knowledge. In Scouting, this tradition continues. Adults provide the living example to Scouts of the ideals of Scouting. More importantly, adults provide the impetus for a Scout''s personal growth and self-confidence.

Adults also provide the safety net that allows Scouting to work. Through guidance and support adults in Scouting create the environment the Scouts need to take advantage of these methods. The Scout learns to work with other adults and develops the skills needed to navigate the adult world.

Some adults do a better job of this than others and the adults in many cases get better at this with experience.

Leadership Development:

Scouts learn to lead themselves. In Scouting, adults aren''t there to lead the youth. They are there to guide the youth through the process of leading themselves. This process begins in the Patrol where Scouts have their first opportunity to choose their own leaders. As the Scout''s experience grows, his opportunities for leadership increase.

Leadership in Scouting includes making decisions and guiding the troop and Patrol, planning the program, and conducting meetings. Scouts learn to lead by leading, and they develop leadership skills by learning to follow their chosen leaders.

Uniform:

The uniform has always been an important part of being a Scout. In this day and age, many would have you believe that the uniform really isn''t all that important; that a Scout is as much a Scout in T-shirt and jeans as he is in khaki and green. That''s partly true, but the uniform is more than a set of clothes. It''s more than simply a place to display achievements. It is a symbol of the boy''s commitment to Scouting - his acceptance of Scouting''s ideals and willingness to live by them.

Scouts who do not wear a uniform usually do not have a complete understanding of Scouting or the commitment they have been asked to make. Many Scouts will tell you that the uniform doesn''t look good, it doesn''t fit well, or it isn''t very good for outdoor activities. In some respects, this is true, but they are superficial concerns. Perhaps they don''t understand that the uniform is a symbol of their commitment and, not wearing the uniform is a sign that they lack that commitment.

A new or young Scout might not have much say in the matter. He wears what his parents tell him to wear.

When OJ moved from one Troop to another, the second SM informed us that the Troop only wore the Scout shirt!! This came from the SM not the Scouts.

OJ did pick and choose when he would wear a full uniform. He wouldn''t be caught dead at an OA function without his full uniform and went so far as having me buy the woolen expensive uniform, because it looked better.

Somehow the OA was able to light the fire that made him want to wear the full and correct uniform.

The methods are all important.

But they need to be seen as goals and worked toward. There will be times when everything seems to work and work well, but then there will be times when something just seems to be missing.

We need to be aware of what is happening and ready to correct what is wrong rather than just giving up saying that it''s broken and can''t be fixed.

Ea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Beavah, cute story, but poor analogy. The BSA has standards which can''t be changed. Boys can no more vote on changing the official uniform (other than hats & neckerchiefs) than they can vote on changing the requirements for Eagle or allowing boys to ride in the back of pick-up trucks.

If you can show me ANYWHERE in ANY BSA publication where the boys are instructed or allowed to vote on altering the official uniform, then I will gladly change my position. I won''t hold my breath.

 

Barry - you are employing the Method, and I applaud you.

 

Method: the means or procedures used in attaining an end.

 

Letting the boys vote on something they don''t have the authority to change is not a Method. Deciding the boys don''t want to wear the uniform and accepting that as the status quo is not a Method. It is the absence of a Method.

Telling another Scouter that trying to get their boys to improve their uniforming is a waste of time and energy is not a Method.

 

"Troop leaders should set a good example by wearing the uniform themselves and by encouraging each Scout to acquire and wear a uniform."

Scoutmaster Handbook

 

Many of the monthly programs in the Troop Program Planning Features include "Hold a uniform inspection." as part of the opening ceremony for week 1. Did they include that because they thought Troops shouldn''t hold periodic inspections? Holding inspections conducted by the boys is a great way of employing the Method.

 

Ea., good post. At the Troop we were previously part of, the SM basically told the boys the same thing - they only need to wear the shirt. I''m glad to hear the OA is inspiring your son. As the Honor Society of the BSA, they should. Unfortunately, down here, some members of the Honor Society are the worst when it comes to uniforming.

[Gunny2862]

My uniforming cake is kind of dumpy, not much rise - anybody got any experience with trying Baking Powder for that? The fry cook -he ain''t no chef yet - wears the full-blown french chef uniform though - too include the funny hat with Baking Society of America standard emblem.

 

Is Baking Powder analogous to infrequent, moving to more frequent, inspections?

Or to holding inspections on the PLC and then widening it to the troop? or something else?

[highcountry]

Beavah, your analogy is spot on, right on target. Times change, things change, one needs to adapt (Within reason) and one can still deliver a good and quality program with adjsutment to the recipe. To blindly stick to an age old recipe unwilling to bend may likely yield less results than making smart and appropriate adjsutments.

 

Does this mean I think it''s OK to cut short merit badge requirements, or check off advancements if the scout can barely demostrate any ability on that requirement....absolutely not. Am I going to allow someone who is say scribe to advance if he only has the patch on his shirt and has done nothing for 6 months....No. But ifa scout shows up with a class A shirt and necker, clean, buttoend and tucked in and has nice green cargo pants and decent shoes I am fine with it. A leather belt vs the scout issue one, fine by me, black socks....fine. If the scout is getting something from the program, growing as an individual and contributing and participating in the program then I feel things are headed in the proper direction. As LisaBob mentioned earleir about being sometimes iritated about the Uniform Police, they don''t irritate me, I am somewhat ammused by them. It is plain to me when someone cannot stop ranting about what others do when they know they have no ability to get others to change their troop that they themselves are the ones all iritated. I don''t let it bother me,I have bigger fish to fry.

 

As per the original set of questions, when I took over as SM a year ago our troop adhered to almost none of the methods, although we have always stuck to the merit abdge and advancement requirements, we always did the scout oath and law and scoutmaster conferences and BOR''s were very meaningful. Patrols were a list of names and little if anything was reqired or done by them, troop meetings were a flag ceremony, long announcements and then a free for all of tag, foosball, pool, table tennis and kids leaving early. About 15% of the scouts were a class A shirt and those were ussually unbottened and un tucked, many dirty. No one sat in patrols, the scouts set up chairs for parents and scouts and they sat with their buddies.

 

I have brought things a long way in the past year and have a long way to go, thses things won''t change overnight. Getting 100% to wear shirts buttoned and tucked has taken a year. No more jeans alone is going to be a loft goal, but getting the patrols to act like patrols, take leadership and responsibilty under their wings and not expect to be spoon fed and enteretained is my major goal over the next 6 months. 100% uniform compliance is below that priority and when I consider how some are so hung up on the issue I could even care less. Getting them all in some form of sharp green pants would be great adn uniform inspection and patrol points are helping us get there, but I could care less if we all make it to the overpriced BSA ones just because someone who is not part of my troop can''t get beyond reminding everyone what the BSA....marcus of queensbury rules say.

Like I said, I have changed a load in this troop and many times I got flack about it but I also got support overall and we have made a million improvements in a short time. I have many more improvements to make like responsibility and reliability and independence etc that are WAY more important than what pants to wear.

[Beavah]

That''s partly true, but the uniform is more than a set of clothes...It is a symbol of the boy''s commitment to Scouting - his acceptance of Scouting''''s ideals and willingness to live by them.

 

Yah, it can be that. We hope it becomes that, eh? That''s the real uniform method - the one that''s worn in the heart and not on the body.

 

Now I agree with Eagledad, we gotta ask ourselves "What is the uniform a symbol of to this boy in front of us?" Not to the adults, not to a part-time book editor in Irving. To this boy. Making the boy put on clothes because adults are gay and like queer-looking socks does not get the lad to accepting a shirt as a Symbol of Brotherhood and Ideals. What is the meaning of the uniform to the boy? If it''s not yet a symbol of Brotherhood and Ideals, then we''ve got work to do, eh? And that work is probably a lot harder than making a boy wear the right pants on threat of expulsion.

 

Boys get to choose what symbols are most meaningful to them. It ain''t something we can demand as adults. Which is why if we want to use the real Uniform Method, the one that''s meaningful instead of a party costume, it takes time and effort with each boy. And it ain''t ever going to be perfect.

 

Beavah

 

 

[Beavah]

The BSA has standards which can''t be changed.

 

Yah, dat''s true, eh?

 

The Baking Society of America has standards for a published "Uniform Standard Cake" that only they can change. They own that standard. It''s an OK standard recipe for beginners, eh?

 

Boys and adults can''t vote to change the Baking Society''s cake standard. But every time they bake a cake, they can choose how to do it for themselves. If they''re missing ingredients, they can substitute on the fly. If they really like Oreo cookies, they can make an Oreo topping instead of a chocolate one. If they don''t have an electric mixer, they can try to hand mix. The Baking Society doesn''t care. Fact is, they even get some good ideas for updating the Standard Recipe from their members in the field who experiment. Indeed they measure their success as the Baking Society of America not by how close to the Standard Cake people are getting, but by how many members they have doing any kind of baking at all. In fact, they recently started a whole Venturous Baking division where their members can choose to bake whatever they like.

 

And believe it or not, da Baking Society of America even has a number of genuine Pastry Chefs on its national committees.

 

-----------

 

 

Gunny, I would imagine that if you''re havin'' trouble getting your Standard Cake to rise, it is often a combination of Baking Powder and binder. Now there''s some that say you should just Beat It a lot more as the adult cook. And that can help a little bit, for a short time. But I don''t think that''s the way to go.

 

Baking Powder is anything that gets a fun "rise" out of your Scouts. Your chef recognizing them for being in uniform occasionally can work. I would think some other things that are personal - like doing up some "homebrew" troop patches for events would work well. Make up a six-segment right-pocket patch in-house, one segment for competence in each of 6 Adventure Sports. Make up a Mud Campout Survivor patch. Help ''em make the connection between activity and personal growth and success ---> Uniform piece as a Symbol. That has to be personal.

 

Binder is like egg in a cake. It''s what holds it all together. What holds your guys together? How are your patrols? Is there good competition? Do they feel about their patrols the way Harry, Ron, and Hermione feel about Gryffindor? A good cake has to have somethin'' binding it together, so that the Baking Soda can allow it to rise without collapsing. Stronger patrols and more patrol competition might be da ticket.

 

Beavah

 

[eisely]

At the risk of sounding too rigid or old fashioned, the complete uniform should be worn correctly or not at all. The adult leaders have to set the example. The impact of the uniform is completely psychological. The uniform has nothing to do with advancement or outdoor skills. It is a matter of building self respect and identity with the larger group. In this regard the mentality, and psychological needs, of the youth in scouting are not that far different from boys who join gangs that wear certain combinations of colors and clothing.

 

Uniforming should not be left to the disrection of the boys, except for the two items that are clearly discretionary, namely neckerchiefs and neckerchief slides.

 

A few years back our SPL addressed the troop on this subject. I wish I could remember exactly what he said, but in this one area he was wise beyond his years. To him sloppiness in uniforming showed that the wearer did not respect either scouting or himself.