Are they ALL important?

[BrentAllen]

1. Assume I posted our boys never recite the Oath or Law, except at COHs. They aren''t required to memorize them because we feel it becomes meaningless repitition. We don''t spend much time on the Oath and Law because the boys feel they aren''t that important. Many here would shake their heads in disbelief and think we don''t have much of a Boy Scout Troop.

 

2. Assume I posted that we eat our meals as a Troop, not as Patrols. It''s too much work to get them all doing their own menues and cooking. Most functions, we just do them as a Troop, as it is easier to deliver instructions and get them to work in one big group. Many here would shake their heads in disbelief and think we don''t have much of a Boy Scout Troop.

 

3. Assume I posted we only go camping twice a year, and when we do, we stay in cabins at State Parks. Carrying and setting up tents is just too much work, and we don''t like sleeping on the ground. The boys might go on a quick hike around the park, but mostly hang around the cabins or look for a playground. Many here would shake their heads in disbelief and think we don''t have much of a Boy Scout Troop.

 

4. Assume I posted most of our boys are Scout or Tenderfoot, that they don''t care much about advancement and we don''t encourage it. Too much paperwork, too many requirements, and for what? How is spending the night in a tent going to help us, when we stay in cabins on our trips? Many here would shake their heads in disbelief and think we don''t have much of a Boy Scout Troop.

 

5. Assume I posted our SM doesn''t really see the point of SM conferences. He just asks the boys if they have completed all the requirements, and if they say yes, he signs off. We don''t see much point in BORs, as the adults can just ask the SM if the boy is ready to advance. Many here would shake their heads in disbelief and think we don''t have much of a Boy Scout Troop.

 

6. Assume I posted we don''t do any service projects or Good Turns. We don''t work with any other Troops in the area or go to camporees. We see no need to mention or pursue the religious emblems program. Many here would shake their heads in disbelief and think we don''t have much of a Boy Scout Troop.

 

7. Assume I posted we don''t have real boy leaders. We appoint some boys to be Patrol Leaders for the loose groups we call patrols, but they don''t have any real responsibilities. We don''t need QMs or Scribes or any other positions, as the adults do all the work. Many here would shake their heads in disbelief and think we don''t have much of a Boy Scout Troop.

 

8. Assume I posted our boys only wear the uniform shirt, but don''t care to wear the pants. They wear whatever is oomfortable to them. Scout belts and socks aren''t ever discussed. Many here would say that sounds familiar and wouldn''t have any problem with it.

 

Why is that?

 

In case you haven''t figured it out, I''m talking about the 8 Methods. Some here accuse me of being a uniform fanatic. Maybe so, but I am just as fanatical about the other 7 methods. I am fanatical about Scouting. I promote the use of all 8 methods, to the fullest extent.

Others, come here and defend and promote 7 of the Methods, but then disparage the 8th. Why is that?

 

To my knowledge, I have never posted any comments encouraging another Scouter to ignore or short-change ANY of the Methods. I believe you need them all to make Scouting the great program it has been for the last 100 years. So, why do I post so much about uniforming? Because it is the only Method I see getting beat up, with posters telling others it isn''t important, it isn''t worth the effort. Yes, that bothers me.

 

Some have decided only 7 are important and encourage others to downplay the 8th. Think about that. If someone (highcountry, for example) posts about not using the Patrol Method for cooking meals, he will hear all about how that is wrong, including from the same posters who downplay uniforming. Are they Patrol Method fanatics? I hope so! I just wish they were also uniform fanatics.

 

Do you promote all 8 Methods in your unit?

 

Do you encourage other Scouters to use and promote all 8 Methods in their units?

[Beavah]

Yah, OK, I''ll bite, eh?

 

I know a local Catholic troop that doesn''t do too much with the Oath and Law beyond what you describe, eh? But they do have regular prayer at meetings, and they do live by a fine set of Values, both the Adults and da kids. Have they failed to implement the Ideals method because they didn''t adhere to da BSA''s form, or have they succeeded in the Ideals Method because they live by fine ideals?

 

Da same can apply to any of the Methods, eh? I love to see troops doing High Adventure Outdoors every year. But in a heck of a lot of cases a troop gets by on car and cabin campin'', and maybe gets to Philmont once every 6 years in the lottery. Have they failed to use Outdoors Method because they don''t run 4 weeks of high adventure a year?

 

Does the 8-boy troop fail in their scouting because they don''t have enough boys for two patrols, and have to run "troop method"? Does a troop that doesn''t get every kid to Eagle fail in fully using Advancement Method?

 

Some of da best youth-led troops around here don''t do Camporees. Are they bad because they don''t do Camporees, or are they good because their youth get to decide on da program?

 

Methods are tools. We use ''em as we need ''em to accomplish our goals. It is not a virtue to say "I used every tool in my toolbox fully" if in order to do it yeh used a hammer to crack an egg or a chainsaw to pound a nail. We don''t use tools just to use tools.

 

Virtue is in whether we used each tool appropriately, and with enough skill to build something worthwhile.

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

Beavah captured my thoughts.

 

If the youth GROW and DEVELOP, and if they have FUN... then we who provide program have done our job.

 

The object of the exercise is to help a young man or woman prepare for adulthood. Everything we do must resonate back to that ultimate purpose... it''s why we have the Game with a Purpose!

[packsaddle]

OK, I agree that we may not use the tools the same way. We may not use the same tools to achieve the same mission. But it IS nice to know that we have the tools there in the toolbox, ready for use. And if we never use them or if we don''t know what they are,....I see that as a problem. We might miss what the mission is if we think we don''t need to use some of the tools. And we might not be successful if we have a clear mission but don''t know how to use the tools.

 

To me this is one problem with local option. While I support local option with regard to membership and leadership, I see and appreciate the need for the methods - the tools if you will. The mission is what distinguishes the Boy Scout from other endeavors. But the methods largely define the program and help us to deliver the program.

 

Assuming I read Brent's post correctly, this thread mostly seems to be about the uniform. One distinction might help here. There is a distinction between the uniform as a program concept and THE uniform as a rigid requirement. The official uniform is THE ultimate standard. The uniform as a concept is an idea which achieves the function or purpose of THE uniform.

One way to address this distinction for the 8th method is to rigidly require THE uniform. This can work. Another way to address the distinction is to meet the conceptual goal. I think some would argue that as long as the function or purpose of the method is achieved, the way the method is used is flexible.

 

Personally, given the changes to the uniform over the years, it is obvious that BSA has been flexible over the long time. To me this is less a question of virtue, based on how the uniform is used, but more a matter of whether or not the boys get the benefit of a good program. If they get that benefit, in or out of THE uniform, I see some virtue to it.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[BrentAllen]

The Methods aren''t tools to pick and choose from. The are ingredients for the program, as in a cake. You can try to make a cake without all the ingredients, but is it going to be as good as cake made with all of them?

 

Pack, the post wasn''t just about the uniform, but also about how some are fanatics about 7 of the methods, and very cavalier about the Uniform Method. I know good uniforming can be achieved without loosing boys - leaving "bodies" from the "shoot-out" - so I can''t understand why some have that attitude.

[Eagledad]

>>Pack, the post wasn''''t just about the uniform, but also about how some are fanatics about 7 of the methods, and very cavalier about the Uniform Method.

[BrentAllen]

Barry,

The minute a new boy walks into a troop meeting, he will see what is expected of him with regard to uniforming. He will either see boys wearing the uniform correctly, and know that is expected of him - without a word being spoken - or he will see slip shod uniforming, and know that is tolerated.

 

How hard is it to be in "perfect" uniform? Go to the shop and buy a shirt, pants, socks and a belt. Are you telling me you can expect a boy to be able to pack all his gear for a camping trip, but can''t expect him to figure out 4 parts to a uniform?? The boys coming out of our Pack are already in full uniform, so it is easy for us. I guess we can blame it on the Packs.

 

Should not being in uniform be the end of a boy''s scouting career? Not necessarily. I would explore the situation - why does he feel that way? Can he not afford one? If he just flat out refused to wear one, I would suggest he find another unit, since that is not the tradition at our unit.

[Eagledad]

>>How hard is it to be in "perfect" uniform?

[GernBlansten]

Brent, you mentioned in another thread that you just started your unit this year after leaving another that failed to meet your expectations. How many traditions does your new unit have? Who established them?

My unit is celebrating its 50th year. Even with our sloppy uniforming, we seem to keep coming back for more.

[Beavah]

The minute a new boy walks into a troop meeting, he will see what is expected of him with regard to uniforming.

 

Yah, but yeh can apply that to any other method, eh?

 

A boy shouldn''t see slipshod youth leadership, so only perfect youth leaders are allowed by the adults.

 

A boy shouldn''t see slipshod Advancement so he knows what''s expected of him and all dat. Must make First Class First Year, Must Make Eagle by 14. Adults need to demonstrate their leadership and insist on Advancement, eh?

 

A boy shouldn''t see slipshod Outdoors, so the Adults better run it, eh?

 

and on and on...

 

Uniform Method is about more than just clothing. I think that''s where some adults get confused. In fact, just insisting on boys wearing conforming clothing is a poor use of Uniform Method. Uniforming, like Advancement and other methods is only successful when it reflects what has become internal to a boy, not what he wears. Uniforming method reaches its height when a lad identifies himself as part of the Scouting Movement, and greets fellow Scouts as brothers (& sisters), no matter what their nation, background, wealth, race, creed, or clothing. When gettin'' ready for Scouting means pride in gettin'' ready for adventure with a band of comrades.

 

If we insist on conforming clothing, but don''t get to that internal view of fellow scouts as our brothers and sisters (no matter what they wear) then I think we''ve failed at Uniform Method. I think dat''s the heart of the critique of adult uniform hang ups I share with EagleDad. Lookin'' down on others for not havin'' perfect clothing is the opposite of the true Uniform Method.

 

Beavah

 

[Lisabob]

This whole discussion of uniforming is both a source of fascination and an irritant for me, I admit. I''ve written this before, but my own views on uniforming have changed a lot in the roughly 6 years that I''ve been involved as a scouter. In general I''m not inclined to be excited about uniforms, and esp. not about the problematic scout uniforms. So for the first couple of years that I was a leader, I wouldn''t have been caught dead in more than the scout shirt. Then I went to WB and that''s really the first time I wore the full uniform. I spent a lot of time at WB getting to know people whom I came to respect and admire. We talked about what the uniform meant to them and why, even though they disliked certain aspects, they wore it with pride. I came away with a somewhat different view. When my son joined the troop he chose (a full-uniform troop) I got to know several of the adults who were/are big on uniforming, as a reflection of what scouting has done for them. And in the last three/four years we''ve graduated a handful of boys who went on to join the armed forces. They come back when they are able, to visit and lend a hand, always in uniform and with yet another perspective on why uniforming matters.

 

And, knowing these fine young men, my views have changed some more. I still really dislike some aspects of the boy scout uniform and find it both impractical and too expensive (certain elements of it) for my preference. But I wear it correctly and with pride, as a reflection of my respect for others who serve and who wear a uniform, both in scouting and in broader society.

 

So the meaning of the uniform has changed for me. But it took me a while to get here, and I''m an adult. I really do think it behooves us to give kids that opportunity too. Tell them they "have to" wear it and many of them will, but they''ll do it without giving it much thought. They won''t recognize it for the potent symbol that it can be; rather, they''ll recognize it as something that''s forced upon them and that they don''t like. We''ll teach them, perhaps, to choose their battles (and that this isn''t one worth choosing because they''ll "lose" for sure), but we may well fail to teach them why they ought to be proud to be seen in uniform. Surface compliance without deeper understanding is not what I hope we''re in this for.

[BrentAllen]

Gern,

These boys have been together for 5 years, in the same Den and Patrol. The uniforming tradition has been with them for that long. Sure, it started with the Pack, but it has become their tradition. They also have the tradition of saying the Pledge, Oath and Law at the beginning of each meeting. We are copying another very good Troop that has a tradition of requiring the boys to carry a survival kit at all times on campouts. I introduced it to the boys, they really liked the idea, and we are instituting it, for both boys and adults.

 

Beavah, that has to be the most confused, convoluted description of the Uniform Method I have ever seen. Let me see if I got this - we are uniform on the inside, but not on the outside? Sorry, but the Uniform Method is much more about the appearance we present to the public. "People seeing a boy in a Scout uniform expect someone of good character who is prepared to the best of his ability to help those around him." The printers must have left out your "internal uniforming" explanation.

It takes a while to learn leadership, everyone knows that. It takes months to earn each rank. It takes 5 minutes to put on a uniform.

 

Barry, the uniform is the first thing most people see when encountering Scouts. First impressions are the most important, right? I do believe the uniform does build citizenship - the boys show respect for themselves, their unit, for the BSA, and to those who wore the uniform in the past. I think the military would tell you wearing their uniforms also builds citizenship in the soldiers. I think it also builds character because it instills discipline and comraderie. Character is doing the right thing, and wearing the uniform is the right thing to do. If the boys don''t know this, who taught them that wearing the uniform is wrong?

 

[Eagledad]

>>Character is doing the right thing, and wearing the uniform is the right thing to do.

[BrentAllen]

"But I will agree the military is why so many adults are confused." I never said that, so you aren''t agreeing with me.

 

The boys get to choose what they are going to wear for every Scout meeting. I don''t go to their house and dress them! I won''t turn them away if they show up out of uniform. We have had 4 meetings in the new troop, and nearly all have been completely in uniform. Sometimes one will have on other socks or couldn''t find their belt, but they try to be in uniform for every meeting. This is not due to any brow-beating from me or anyone else, as you must be assuming. When we were with the other troop, the boys wore their uniforms then as well, even though 2/3 of the rest of the troop didn''t. At their very first meeting these boys decided they wanted to earn the National Honor Patrol Award . Wearing the uniform is required to earn it. I didn''t even mention this award to them - a couple of the boys had found it in their Scout book and brought it to my attention. Totally their decision. The boys own this.

 

Y''all seem to think the uniform is only to be decided upon by the boys. Tell me, what do you think B-P was saying when he stated "Show me a poorly uniformed Troop, and I will show you a poorly uniformed Scoutmaster"? If the Uniform Method was left totally up to the boys, why would B-P say that? What would it matter what the SM wore?

[Trevorum]

I wonder if we would be having this discussion if the official BSA uniform was simply a neckerchief and maybe a vest, the way it is in some countries.