Alternate Realities?

[Beavah]

Sometimes, we have to make a choice about what we are going to fight for actively, and what we will fight for simply with our own example ... or perhaps even decide to bypass because we know where we are with our resources.

 

Yah, exactly.

 

There''s no question that adults in a unit can enforce strict uniforming, eh? Might reduce the size of a unit a bit, or not, depending on the area and what other choices a boy has.

 

Da question is more whether that''s the right way to go for a particular adult or unit. IMHO, the troops that are consistently in full uniform tend toward bein'' pretty adult-run. To be uniform, yeh have to have someone enforcin'' uniformity. Doesn''t mean they don''t have a good program, they often do. Just means that they chose to use their limited time differently, emphasizing uniform over some other things.

 

I personally care more about the other things, so I wouldn''t choose to spend my efforts on uniforming. And I get a kick out of small "personalization" of uniforms, from the Untrainable patches on up. Shows personal investment in da uniform to make it your own. No big deal.

 

But Oak has a point in that I would find it a bit discourteous for someone to imply I wasn''t doing Scouting right because I spent my time differently than they did, or enjoyed the occasional odd patch. We remember that in the real world when we''re in person, most of the time. In this here digital alternate reality, though, it sometimes gets forgotten. Fer some reason, there''s an odd delight in calling someone "wrong" anonymously.

 

Scoutin'' volunteers are good people, by and large. No matter which methods they choose to prioritize time-wise, no matter whether they''re jovial or serious. They deserve our support, respect, and understandin''.

 

Beavah

 

[Oak Tree]

Thanks to everyone for the kind words.

 

I haven''t yet reached the point where I''m going to leave the forum, but I do appreciate what might cause someone to do so. Lisa, you''re right - there''s a lot good about the forums, and that''s why we all come here. There are lots of good people to talk to.

 

There are indeed problems in real life that often get glossed over, and it''s great that those get discussed here. In fact, it''s not at all surprising that we get the thornier problems here, and it''s not really the topics that bother me. For me the more relevant issue is whether I find that I''m encouraged and built up by what happens here. Or do I end up going away disappointed or saddened by the personal interactions.

 

A lot of people here are great, but it''s certainly easier to be blunt in this virtual reality.

 

"what a bunch of slackers" - I guess the honey/vinegar thing applies in the real world, but not here.

 

"you don''t have a real Scouting program - period" - this recent comment used to be a common statement in this forum, and I was very happy to see it fade away, and am sorry to see it reappear. This blanket statement that tells all Cub Scouts who wear just the shirts that they aren''t real Cub Scouts just seems harsh.

 

"What purpose is served by making a snide and sneering back-handed comment"

 

"The ego and arrogance factor is at work."

 

"I''m not sure what alternate reality you''re living in" - ok, so I''m guilty too

 

And then we get the rulebreaking argument, R8. "If its ok to break a rule, its ok to break all rules. You either obey rules, or you dont."

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=156126#id_156215

 

"They can wear whatever they want, right? And they can take the same attitude with the G2SS as well. If they want to play paintball, then they can, right? Same with hunting - they can all go on a dove shoot in a couple of weeks - great Scouting event! They can all ride out to the field in the back of a pick-up truck - that sounds like lots of fun! After the shoot, they can race the ATVs around the field."

 

"I can make up the rules. I can turn Cub Scouting into what I think it should be."

 

"What else isn''t needed? A second adult, PFD, enough canoes to hold all the boys that show up? Maybe next time it''s a quickie run up the rocks. How many falls on that rope? 9 mm or 11? Gloves, rappel devices? Does every boy have a helmet? Is he still using pitons and the munter hitch? "

 

The idea seems to be that a troop or adult who uses judgement on one item is therefore likely to ignore all rules and not care about putting kids in danger. This idea does not match my observations, and really seems like a fairly strong insult.

 

So this is just my plea for courtesy. I guess I long for Beavah''s monthly posts on forum etiquette.

 

Thanks,

Oak Tree

[BrentAllen]

Well, Oak, you totally missed my point.

 

There aren''t two alternate realities - there are just two different methods of communication. Face to face, you have a conversation, complete with introductions, handshakes, body language, eye contact, etc.

 

Here, you get one dimensional text. Also, here you are not so much having a conversation as you are sharing ideas, thoughts and opinions - many of which you would never hear in a face to face conversation. It is almost as if you get to read people''s minds. If you could do that walking down the street, I''m sure the world would be much less civil.

 

So, take offense at my "slackers" comment when none was meant - that is your choice. I just ask if you want me to be civil, do me the favor of putting my quotes in proper text.

 

Beavah, around here the opposite is true. The troops that are well uniformed are much more boy run than the one that isn''t. It''s the boys that enforce the uniforming in those troops, not the adults.

[Beavah]

The troops that are well uniformed are much more boy run than the one that isn''''t.

 

Yah, BA. Must be that reading my random thoughts thing.

 

I agree with you. I think troops that are well uniformed can be boy-run. I think the crossover point is troops that are strictly uniformed; that''s almost always adult-driven in my experience. Not a bad thing, like I said, just different use of time.

 

B

 

[BrentAllen]

Beavah, please explain your difference between well uniformed and strictly uniformed. When I say well uniformed, I mean the boys wear the complete correct uniform. I''m interested in hearing your definitions.

[Beavah]

Beavah, please explain your difference between well uniformed and strictly uniformed. When I say well uniformed, I mean the boys wear the complete correct uniform. I''''m interested in hearing your definitions.

 

Yah, OK BA.

 

By well uniformed, I mean the boys all voluntarily wear the BSA uniform for ceremonies and other places where it''s appropriate in a manner that is neat, fairly good-lookin'', and demonstrates their personal pride in being part of the organization. I don''t mind ''em all substituting olive BDU''s for Oscar Pants. I don''t mind all the guys who were really pround of goin'' on the last high adventure trek sewing a small custom patch on their sleeves instead of their right pocket. I don''t mind things not being sewn on quite straight. In fact, I look for such things as a sign that they''re having fun and have really "bought into" uniforming.

 

By strictly uniformed, I mean brass-on-brass, every badge in place according to the insignia guide within a quarter inch or less, no individualization or customization at all, backpacking in full Oscars, and wearin'' those gawd-awful green and red fashion foul socks with those early-80''s too-much-leg shorts. That stuff only happens when an adult has taken charge and forgotten that uniforming is supposed to be fun kids program stuff.

 

Beavah

 

[Eamonn]

As a group most if not nearly all the people I know who volunteer their time for Scouting are nice people.

I have never and hope I never give into the idea that one volunteer "Out Ranks" any other volunteer.

Maybe I can wear a uniform full of knots, beads and dingle-dangles? But that in no way makes me or my time any more valuable than anyone else''s.

Over the years I have wandered around a lot of different Scouting functions, I have seen a lot.

Some things have impressed the heck out of me, some things have left me asking myself "What the heck are they trying to do?"

Some people in my view seem to understand and embrace this program and again in my view end up delivering a program that the Scouts really seem to enjoy and get a lot out of.

While others seem to be way off base and miss the mark completely.

Rarely if ever do I unless asked point out what I see to be the error of their ways.

Sure there are times when I shake my head and maybe raise my eyebrows.

I have at times broken the rules and I feel bad about it; mainly because I know that I knew the rule I was breaking. - I can''t even plead ignorance!!

Very often someone in the forum will ask a specific question.

Too which there is only one right answer.

Some things are found in BSA publications and are down in black and white.

Some kind person will normally provide the "Book Answer".

Then five people will post why they think this should be changed or give reasons why they disagree with the "Book Answer".

At times, more so in the past exchanges do become heated.

While I have to admit that my friends and myself have yet to ever talk about Transgendered Scouts, we do at times talk about some of the topics that pop up here from time to time.

A few of my friends do hold very strong opinions about some of this stuff and have been known to let me know how the really feel, using terms and language that could never be used here.

A friend of mine is a moderator in another active Scouting on line forum. It seems to me that that forum doesn''t allow the same degree of self-expression that we enjoy here.

Anyone who has been around the forum for a little while can almost after reading the first posting in a new thread guess what is coming next and who is going to post it.

As a forum member I know or get a feeling for who I''m going to agree with or disagree with and whose advise I will disregard or value.

When I offer my two cents, I don''t follow up or see if what I posted was of any help or even followed.

To be very honest many of the threads (Especially the ones on uniforming) have become really old. I don''t think other than on points of what goes where that anything posted here is going to make me not wear the correct uniform and the postings here are not going to make anyone rush out to buy whatever part of the uniform they don''t wear.

I''m not going to change my view on cell phones and I''m almost certain that the people who disagree with me will continue to do so.

At the end of the day there are very few people who post here that I wouldn''t enjoy meeting over a drink or at some Scouting function.

Of course there are times when I know someone has hit a raw nerve or I have posted when I should have gone to bed with a couple of extra strength Tylenol!!

Eamonn.

 

 

[packsaddle]

I think I agree with Eamonn with one exception. While those of us who have been reading the threads for a while know how old some topics are, those new members who haven''t taken the trouble to search the archives could easily view these repetitive topics as new and helpful, IMHO.

My uniform probably wouldn''t pass inspection if someone arrived with a ruler and a manual in hand. I only wear a couple of knots and only the required patches. If that makes me a slacker, I plead guilty.

Also, although old ladies for some reason seem to like me a lot (this has long caused me to wonder about the meaning of life), I know that some people don''t consider me to be a nice person...and if I could get into their heads for a few moments, I might agree with them. But in these threads, I assume that adults can disagree and still get along, even be friends. And as for getting heated, well, that''s just human right? So if I''ve angered anyone in the past, sorry. At my age I''m not likely to change much so next time you see me you are welcome to punch me...if you can catch me.

 

I would also like to take this opportunity to agree whole-heartedly with Beavah regarding the socks. Eeeeeuuuuuuuuwwwwww!

And, thank goodness, the official BSA thong remains out of sight most of the time.

That said, with a wink to socks, I like to see the boys in uniform. It is, as Beavah noted, best if the boys reinforce this among themselves with, perhaps, some friendly support from the leadership. This unit does require full uniforms for certain situations (courts of honor, for example) and we keep a supply of second-hand components in case someone forgets or has lost something on those occasions. We will supply the uniform to anyone who can''t afford it so other than male forgetfullness, there''s no excuse not to have it.

 

[Eagledad]

>>Beavah, around here the opposite is true. The troops that are well uniformed are much more boy run than the one that isn''''t.

[resqman]

Recently out troop camped at a state park. There were two other troops at adjoining campsites. Basically it was an open field with 2 or 3 trees in the middle.

 

It was interesting to see the differences in troop behavior. One troop had 2 large metal frame work covered with 10''x20'' tarps set up. They brought 3 or 4 folding tables, chairs, and all sorts of additional equipment. Tents did not match leading me to belive the scouts provided their own. I don''t believe I ever saw any of the boys wearing any part of the uniform. I seldom saw the adults but don''t recall seeing any uniforms.

 

The next troop had one tarp set up over the picnic table. They had a wooden pole at each end of the picnic table but the sides hung down and touched the sides of the table. Again tents did not match leading me to believe scouts provided their own tents. All the scouts and leaders wore red T-shirts with troop logos silk-screened all weekend. I don''t believe I ever saw any of that troop without a red T-shirt.

 

My troop has troop tents. Adults provide their own. We arrived in full uniform, removed uniform shirts, set up tents, and began cooking evening meals. 3/4 of the boys continued to wear their scouts pants through out the weekend (probably because they never changed).

 

Sunday morning Troop 1 broke down all their gear and loaded it into custom wooden crates and packed their trailer.

Troop 2 broke down gear, packed, and headed out. My troop cooked breakfast by patrols and packed personal gear. Class A uniforms were donned, the flag was raised on a lashed camp craft pole, a scout''s own service was lead by a scout, a Roses & Thorns session was held, the flag was retired, and the pole dismantled. Once all troop gear was moved to the parking lot, then personal gear could be moved to the parking lot. Trip home was in full uniform.

 

I guess I could have engaged the other troops leaders in discussion about their uniforming preferences, troop gear purchases, and leadership styles, but instead I was involved in watching for safety issues with the scouts in my troop.

 

The forum allows me an opportunity to discuss with other scouters the real world vs the book documented method of scouting. My goal is to always encourage my troop to move ever closer to the ideal book method. Reading about how other troops and leaders manage issues helps me to better able work with my scouts.

 

I wear my Class A uniform as correctly as I can. I make a point of wearing it as often as possible while around the scouts. I have one pair of shorts, one pair of long pants, one pair of switchback pants and two properly badged uniform shirts. I make a point of wearing scouts pants all weekend long during campouts. If not in a dress uniform shirt, I will have a troop T-shirt or BSA T-shirt on. How can I expect the scouts to wear a correct uniform if I do not hold my self to the same standard?

 

I tend to think had I queried the other troops regarding their uniform choices, I may have been percieved as a busy body. I preferred to lead by example showing the scouts in my troop as well as the others that one can wear the uniform, maintain a level of cleaniness and still have fun.

 

I have noticed that the adults in my troop have made mention to individual scouts to tuck in their shirts, button their shirts, etc. To reduce the number of lost neckerchiefs & slides, the scouts are asked to leave them in the vehicle they rode to the campout in, and retrieve them for the ride home. At $15 per custom embroidered neckerchief, this has proven a cost effective method.

[BrentAllen]

"I would like to see this because its not my experience."

 

Eagledad/Barry,

Next time you are on the north side of Atlanta, let me know and I will give you a tour. The Troop in the story I posted (about helping the mom with the bad back) has excellent uniforming, and they are very boy lead. The boys enforce the uniforming for not only the boys, but also for the adults. If you are an adult leader and you want to stay in the Troop meeting room during a Troop meeting, you must be in full complete uniform. That is the boy''s rule.

Another Troop in the area operates under the same policy. Very well uniformed, very boy run. This second Troop sent 9 boys to NYLT this year.

The other Troop in the area is poor on uniforming and very adult run. They claim to be boy run, but the SM runs the PLC meeting, the adults set the calendar, dads cook for patrols, etc.

So, come to Atlanta/Dunwoody and I''ll be glad to let you see for yourself.

 

My only other observation about Troops and uniforming is that Troops with WB trained leaders are much better at uniforming. Now, which Troops do you think would be more likely to be boy run? Troops with WB trained leaders, or those without any WB trained leaders? Troop #1 above has many WB trained leaders, as well as providing plenty of leadership at the District level. Our District Advancement chair is a member of that Troop, as well as our Program Vice Chair. As I''ve said many times before, uniforming all comes down to leadership.

[Eagledad]

>>From GernBlansten

Ok, I can/will wear the shirt and the switch backs into a restaurant when I''m traveling with the boys, but no way are you gonna get me to wear the shorts with the dorky socks. In my council, we rarely/never see adults wearing the shorts/socks combo.

There are limits to my fashion tolerance.>Bob T

I had picked up my son after his annual 10-day Sierra trip. He was in uniform, taking his pack out of my truck in our driveway when "the new kid" across the street (whom he had never met) shouted "Gay Scouts" at my son. My son faced him, paused, and said "I just spent the last ten days hauling this pack 60 miles across the Sierras. You want in on that action?"