Alternate Realities?

[Oak Tree]

I''ve been thinking about my comment to Nessmuk around alternate realities. Maybe the phrasing was a little dramatic, although I do think we have very different circumstances.

 

But what it really got me thinking about was that this forum is very much an alternate reality.

 

Real world - People I can see and talk to and physically interact with, and for these purposes here I''m only indicating my own personal experience and not making sweeping statements about the entire real world.

 

In the real world, conversations are typically friendly and upbeat, and arguments are rare.

 

In the real world, I attended Strictly for Scoutmasters at Philmont this summer. Arguments were non-existent, even as we discussed all manner of Scouting issues. People said "Here''s how we do it, and how it''s working for us." Everyone loved the interaction. No one, including the instructors, ever told any Scoutmaster how they were doing things wrong. The most common comment from the instructors and from the class members was, "You''ve got to figure out what will work for you."

 

In the real world, I don''t think I''ve ever had an argument about how essential it is to follow the rules. Here it seems almost constant. Sufficiently common that we''ve created the canonical list of arguments.

 

In the real world, no one has ever suggested that since we don''t require uniform pants, we may very well be ignoring all other aspects of the Scouting program.

 

In the real world, no one seems to care if we wear uniform pants. I''ve thought about it, and I guess I really don''t care. I know the boys don''t care (and some actively oppose the idea), and the parents don''t care. In all our interactions with the official BSA, and there are many, none of them give any indication of caring either. The only people who seem to care if we wear official pants are people on this forum.

 

In the real world, we never discuss gays in Scouting.

 

In the real world we have constant positive interactions. In the forums, not surprisingly, most discussions start with some description of a problem.

 

In the real world, people use the term ''Class A'', and don''t get corrected on their terminology. At Philmont the head of the Boy Scout division used the term, with a wink and a nod. No one complained.

 

Kahuna left the forum in 2006, giving a well-written explanation of why the forums were no longer for him. I know where he''s coming from.

[Lisabob]

Interesting post Oak, and I''d be sorry to see you leave this forum as your advice is practically always thoughtful, level-headed, and helpful.

 

You''re right that the conventions of social interaction are quite different (most of the time) in real life, as compared to a computer screen. And maybe that makes for a more pleasant conversation that respects the experience of the individuals involved in a different way than an online forum can do.

 

Yet I have to say as well, that some of the problems we discuss on this forum lie just under the surface of the toughest problems that units tend to have. The difference is that here, we can talk about them in the open and relatively anonymously, sending up trial balloons to play the "what if we tried it this way" game, while in our home units we often can''t openly discuss difficult issues without causing more (short-term?) problems. So they simmer, unspoken and unaddressed. This leads to misperceptions about our fellow scouters'' motivations, mismatched assumptions about what scouting is and how we achieve it, personal disputes that fester for a long time and then erupt in most egregious fashions in a far-too-public manner, etc..

 

So I''m not sure that the debates and problems aren''t there in real life. I''d say that they are often there, but they are simply masked. And while common courtesy dictates that this is sometimes the way to go when you know you''ll have face-to-face contact with the same group of people over a period of years, it sometimes creates more tension and problems than it solves too.

 

Oh, and also - as much as I love talking about scouts and scouting, there''s a relatively few people in the unit I''m part of who have a similar inclination. Folks on this board, by its very nature, share that passion.

[mk9750]

Oak Tree:

What an unbelievably astute comment. You are dead right. (IMVHO)

 

Lisabob:

An even better response! You also are exactly right (IMVHO).

 

Although I believe most anyone who might actually know me locally here could easily figure out who mk9750 is, I feel a sense of security in the anonimity of these forums. I can assure you I have never lied here, nor do I believe the vast majority here have either. But it is comforting to know that I can be brutally honest here without fear of hurting the feelings of someone I care about very much, which can happen if I express my ideas to those with whom I work in our Troop and in our District.

 

Might I suggest that we all consider Lisabob''s suggestion that we all demonstrate common courtesy, while still using this tool to float those ideas, let them get beat up a little bit, and maybe even shot down, so that we go back to our reality and offer the best program we can? And may I suggest that we all understand the difference Oak Tree points out in virtual reality here and real reality out there?

 

Mark

[Trevorum]

For a minute there I had visions of a Scouting virtual reality - sorta like Second Life - where we would create our own avatars (all in top physical condition, of course), demonstrate 100% correct uniforming at all times, guide perfectly boy-led troops, and trek Philmont whenever we wanted. (sigh)

[Stosh]

One must also remember that body language, intonality, and other vital parts to conversation are absent in the forum interchange. Immediate feedback is also absent and "further clarification" is absent in many instances.

 

When addressing a person face to face, these parts of a conversation are just as important and often times more important than what is actually being said. For the most part we are blind to the depth of conversation that face to face offers.

 

Stosh

[Its Me]

 

Most forums are like this. Running forums will debate for 8 pages about the exact time to eat a banana before a race. A wood working forum debates whether 300 grit paper under the European grit rating is actually 220 grit under the US system.

To 99.9% of the people > Yawn!

 

But when I was running and trying not to get sick when I raced it was import for me to know when to eat a banana. Making furniture requires equally detailed inquires.

 

Yep this may not be the real world but if you got a detailed question on scouting this place is sure a great place to have.

 

I really like you guys (sniff) < Note: not real tears.

 

 

 

[evmori]

There should be a training award for this!

[CalicoPenn]

"There should be a training award for this!"

 

Will it come with a nifty new knot? Maybe a sheepshank??

 

Calico

[RangerT]

Not a sheepshank more like a Gordian Knot that has no solution and just causes confusion.

 

Still with all its warts this forum is a whole lot better than most of the others I have seen out there and sometimes you even get some good advice.

[John-in-KC]

I also like both Oak Tree''s and Lisa''s comments.

 

I especially like that this forum is here. If some of the systems of Scouting (Commissioner''s Service) worked as well as they are supposed to, we''d be able to put much of what we say here to the back burner.

 

They don''t, so we ask for help and give help in return.

 

The people here are pretty generally good people.

[Gunny2862]

I appreciate everyones comments although I may not especially like some comments. But then I feel that it is probable that there are those who feel the same way about mine. A little uncommon courtesy goes a long way.

 

And yes, this is very much an alternate reality, part of it is figuring how much of what people are saying is what they know it should be versus how much they actually do. And I like seeing both answers - they help this new guy pick his battles.

 

Stick around Oak...

 

Youse guys(and gals)is da greatest. (Insert appropriately touchy-feely emoticon)

[local1400]

This forum for the most part is exactly what Scouting has to offer. I have learned many things, we have all helped each other on some subject, made friends with a few, shared experiences, and even had some laughs. Impersonal? Yeah, but without this forum, how really would you meet some great people who all have a passion for Scouting?

[BrentAllen]

"In the real world, no one seems to care if we wear uniform pants."

 

Oak, I guess you never have actually met a member of the UP. Neither have I. That being said, I do care if you wear the correct uniform. I''m not going to say anything to you about it if we met face to face, as you aren''t in my unit. If you want to know how I really feel, I will tell you that any time I see boys wearing only parts of the uniform, I think a) what a bunch of slackers b) it''s a shame the boys don''t have more respect for the uniform and the program and c) it''s a shame they don''t have leaders and parents who do care, and can lead on the issue. I''ll never say that to anyone not in my unit in the real world (unless asked), but I will type it here - not to start an argument or trash anyone, but to state my opinion and hopefully educate and promote the wearing of the complete correct uniform.

 

The boys in my unit wear the complete correct uniform - shirt, pants, belt, socks. Why can our boys do it, and not others? I just don''t understand the differences. And this isn''t about rules, it is about the program. If you want to be a Scout, you wear the Scout uniform. To me, it all comes down to leadership. If your parents decided they didn''t care about some of the Eagle requirements, would you just ignore them? Just because they don''t care about the uniform doesn''t mean it isn''t important. I think they just need some leadership on the issue.

[Lisabob]

While on the whole I''d have to agree with Brent''s last line, I think it is important to realize that one of the reasons we seldom discuss some of these more controversial issues in "the real world" is that there are *so many* issues about which people just need some leadership. And our leaders are often stretched thin and don''t have the capacity to lead (or lead well) on all of those issues at once. Leading can be exhausting, especially when trying to lead people to agreement (or acceptance, or at the least, compliance) on difficult issues.

 

[John-in-KC]

Lisa hit on something important.

 

There are 24 hours in a day, no more, no less. The sun rises in the east, and sets in the west. Each of us has a limited stock of emotional resources. Joy tends to fill that stock, sorrow, worry, and exhaustion deplete it.

 

Jobs, families, chores, our own training and education, all compete for time with our Scouting choices.

 

Sometimes, we have to make a choice about what we are going to fight for actively, and what we will fight for simply with our own example ... or perhaps even decide to bypass because we know where we are with our resources.