Hazing, bullies and duty rosters....Oh my!

[GernBlansten]

Had a parent meeting last night with the troop to talk about things and the topic turned to attrition after summer camp and how many scouts did we lose. Kinda getting a feeling why scouts quit after summer camp. As we probed deeper some of the new parents were saying that some kids were feeling bullied and hazed during camp. This got the SM attention real quick. He was there and kept a close eye on the boys just for that reason. See, we have a bully in our troop and he makes sure he can''t be one at camp and has his radar up for any malfeasance.

 

Well, a little more probing and some more tidbits surface. Seems these boys (all first year scouts) who feel they were bullied and hazed thought so because they were told by older scouts to do things like wash the dishes and cook for others and pick up their tents and get ready for flags, clean the latrines, you know duty roster stuff. They didn''t like being told what to do by other boys. These older scouts were their patrol leaders. Now I wasn''t at camp this year but I know that sometimes tact is not the strong point of a 13 year old patrol leader and sometimes a request to do something sounds like a demand. But hazing? Bullying?

If an adult had told them do the same things I guess that would be OK with them. Well, most of these boys have not returned.

 

Typical or atypical?

[Venividi]

Gern -

A question: Did the PL''s have the duty roster posted so that all could see that all scouts had to take their turn at cooking, cleanup, etc? It isn''t obvious from your post if this had been done or not. A posted duty roster at Summer Camp is a useful because scouts can see when it is there turn, and the PL is reminding the scouts it it their turn. All can see when their turn is coming up.

 

Personally, I can only recall one scout that would not take direction from other scouts. I suspected, but never confirmed, that the scout''s mother had told him that he didnt need to.

[PeteM]

They would have left anyway. I guess that they were looking for a summer vacation so they could just play like they were in cubs.

[GernBlansten]

I wasn''t at this particular summer camp, but camp and troop policy is that the duty roster is posted on each patrol box.

I don''t think this was an issue of the duty roster, I think it is about these scouts not liking other scouts telling them what to do. They labeled it as hazing and that got their parents all in a tizzy. Probably the same kind of kids that don''t have to do chores around the house either.

[Eagledad]

Very Typical. First year scouts are the most challenging scouts because they are going through that shift from adult run to boy run. While the idea of boy run is exciting at first, it becomes challenging and scary. Scary because now they realize the older scouts are truly in control of their survival. Challenging because they find that the older scouts are truly in control of their fun.

 

The way through this is to have the first line of control be the TG and second line the TG Advisor who gives a lot of SM Conferences or advises the SM to give a conference. The new scout must learn that it is a team effort. Each member of the team has a role and the leaders role is to delegate. His role is to learn from the task he is delegated. But also a benefit of being on the team is giving ideas for having more fun. Each scout should be able to express his ideas and dreams to improve the program. The troop may not take up the ideas, but the scouts should see how the system will fairly give him a chance.By the way the roster is one of the best ways for a new scout to understand fairness of each scout on the team.

 

Not that the older scouts can be unfair, but that is a different problem and a different conference.

 

By the way the roster is one of the best ways for a new scout to understand fairness of delegating.

 

The first six months is the most critical for new scouts and the TG and Adviser have to really work to get them up to speed. This is why in my experience the best TGs are 15 or older. I know that is impossible in many troops, but that should be the goal because older scouts are in it more to serve then to just get another requirement signed off. I never had a good 14 year old TG and I never had a bad 16 TG.

 

As for some scouts are just going to quit, I agree. I had a whole patrol of new scouts who decided that being led by other boys was not for them and they left, after six months.

 

This is one of those areas for adults that takes practice. Don''t just talk about the problem, try to come up with a different approach for the next group.

 

BArry

[evmori]

Sounds familiar. I love it when I hear stuff like this! Makes ya wonder what these boys do at home!

 

Like someone posted, they woulda left anyways! A lot of attrition happens when 1st year Scouts think Boy Scouts is 3rd year WEBELOS.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Lisabob]

I notice that some of this happens when their parents do not understand the nature of the program. If a scout goes home from a camp out grumbling to mom and dad about being bullied into doing the dishes or having been assigned "all the work" or something, and if mom & dad don''t understand the notion of boy leadership and haven''t ever heard of duty rosters, then it is more likely that the parent will become alarmed.

 

Some of these boys probably are NOT used to doing any chores/pitching in, and for them it might be a rude shock. But a lot of times, a bit of pre-emptive discussion with parents about how the work load is divided and who is in charge (within reason) may be all that''s needed. THen the parent can tell their own kid "tough luck, just do it" when they complain about washing dishes and whatnot.

 

 

[mk9750]

I think when we see a description of a problem on these forums, without a tremendous amount of detail, we each tend to fill in the nooks and crannies with our own assumptions and perceptions. So my response is based on perceptions I have after seeing similiar issues in our Troop.

 

Although I agree that some boys are not destined to stay in Scouting, were that same discussion to happen at a Troop committee meeting in our Troop, my first assumption would be that the Patrol Leader (under the guidance of a Troop Guide) did a poor job in developing the duty roster and explaining the reasons for the division of labor. Without the frame of reference of knowing that unless I go get firewood, we won''t eat tonight, or without someone cleaning the latrine, I might have to sit in a spider web, why would a boy willingly accept that he has to do any of the work?

 

In our Troop, Patrol meetings are run using agendas, just like the Troop meeting, the PLC, and the adult committee meeting. One of the standing items on a Patrol Meeting agenda is developing a duty roster two weeks before a campout (effectively, it is two and a half weeks before the campout). This does a number things. 1st, it makes the PL have a stake in knowing who is coming, so he ends doing most of the follow up with Scouts who delay signing up for an event.

 

Second, during our in house JLT, we emphasize that the biggest value of a duty roster from the stand point of the PL isn''t getting work done, but demonstrating to the boys in his Patrol that each and every member of the Patrol is needed at events. If Joey sees that his Patrol mates have to double up doing a task, our hope is that he would not put his buddies through that if he could help it. We think our attendance at events is higher because guys know they are needed.

 

And lastly, we ask our PLs for the younger Patrols to help take some responsiblity for their Patrol members'' advancement status. Each month, we give the PL a sheet with the advancement status of each Scout. If the PL sees that Tommy needs to build a fire and cook a meal on it, the PL is likely going to ask Tommy if he can put Tommy''s name in that space on the duty roster.

 

If a Scout, without an understanding of how to lead using a collaborative method, simply ordered a new Scout to scrub the latrine, without helping him understand why (and probably showing him how, too), it would be no wonder that a new Scout would run, not walk, out fo the Troop. But if the Patrol Leader takes the time to explain why a job needs done, demonstrates that he is being fair in how he delegates the tasks, and shows that his delegation is based on something that is a benefit for the Scout (and not just advancement!), then a reasonable person, even an 11 year old, will likely understand and pitch in.

 

Good luck! Leading peers is one of the toughest jobs on the planet. Training youth to learn to lead is a difficult, yet tremendously rewarding effort.

 

Mark

[Gunny2862]

Typical of PC buzzwords. Let the wrong spin get out and no one wants to hear the facts.

Is it still possible, and do you want, to pull them back?

 

I would want to send a letter to the parents of the boys who left,I''m guessing they weren''t at the meeting. And explain exactly what went on, How and where, when and by whom and why the duty roster is posted and that everyone had a slot in the rotation. They did didn''t they?

The purpose of the letter isn''t just to pull them back but to show the parents that the "hazing" charge was unfounded and should be used as a reason for their child to have left Scouting. If they don''t want to share the work that is one thing - if they want to make false attributions that is another.

 

Scouting isn''t for everyone but they should leave for the reason they are leaving and not try to lay it off on hazing in Scouting, something I haven''t seen yet and hope never to see.

[GernBlansten]

Perhaps its just my upbringing, but I think these kids are way to coddled by their parents and resent being required to do some work. I don''t think its worth the effort to try to retain them. I don''t think its even worth writing a letter to these parents explaining it. If they ask, I will respond but chasing them down to beg them to stay in the troop is just not my gig.

 

I think most boys are smart enough to understand that its their turn to do the dishes and if they don''t get done, there won''t be anything to cook with next meal. They need to just do it. Growing up is hard.

[emb021]

"I think it is about these scouts not liking other scouts telling them what to do. They labeled it as hazing and that got their parents all in a tizzy. Probably the same kind of kids that don''''t have to do chores around the house either."

 

Sadly, I''ve seen this attitude as both a scout and a scout leader.

 

While SPL in my troop, I had to deal with a kid who felt I ''couldn''t tell him what to do''. Only his parents could do that. (not sure if the fault is the kid or his stupid parents who go with this ''only we can tell you what to do'').

 

Had some similiar problems while an adult scouter. Had a kid who had zero kitchen skills. Why? At home he didn''t help his mom in the kitchen, that was his sister''s ''job''. (wonder what he will do when he goes to college, etc, and mommie isn''t there to cook/clean for him?). He also had the ''only my parents can tell me what to do'' mindset as well.

 

 

[eagle90]

Summer Camp should not be the first experience for crossovers. Our troop has 3 outdoor campouts in spring after crossover, and we require the crossovers who are going to summer camp to attend at least two of the weekend campouts to get accustomed to how the troop operates, the patrol method and procedures, and to get to know the other scouts and leaders much more than they can do at a troop meeting. We also hold a mandatory Shakedown Training Day where we have classes in patrol method, fire building, cooking and sanitation, equipment, knife & ax safety, tent pitching, flag ceremonies, etc. It''s a one day blitz of information but gets them into the Summer Camp mode.

[John-in-KC]

I respectfully disagree with both Ed and Pete: "They would have left anyway." We don''t grow young men by saying "Don''t let the door hit you in the butt on the way out." That may not have been how the post was meant to say, that''s the message I processed.

 

Feedback IS a gift

 

To Gern:

 

To me, there IS a hard limit to "Scout Run." Adults have to tell other adults how the troop does business. That''s especially true during the transition months of AOL to 1st year LT camp. Yes, the Adult (TG Advisor, SM, whoever) can have a youth do the talking, but the Adult has to be there to say to the new parents: "This is how it is."

 

Paper can be a backup, but conversation is essential.

 

What sort of conversations with New Scout parents do your unit leaders have before that first LT camp?

[evmori]

Communication might be the problem but to categorize doing dishes & keeping tent clean as hazing indicates, at least to me, these boys don''t want to do any work and, yes, are looking for a way out. I''d bet they don''t clean their own rooms or do anything at home, either.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[GernBlansten]

I figured it would come down to its all the adult leaders fault and not scouts or the parents. If only we had more prep camp outs, better communication meetings with video of past camps, and perhaps we could invent a machine that will stop the earth so we have ample lead time to make sure all the scouts are fully prepared to face the horrors of summer camp and the dreaded duty roster. Come on folks, we are talking about 2 or 3 scouts out of 35 that went to camp.

 

Yes, we have parent orientation to explain what happens at summer camp. They all nod in agreement when we explain that their little gems will be in patrols doing chores and being led by other scouts and have to cook and clean and sometimes they might not like it. They all nod.

 

Its when junior gets back from camp and tells mom how horrible it was to have to clean other scouts dishes or to wipe some poop off the latrine seat because some other scout missed the hole and calls it hazing because another scout told him to do it that mom''s nod turns into a shake and calls it hazing and the older scouts bullies.