Unplanned activity

[Aquila]

>>O''''course, it''''s goin'''' to be hard for her son to grow up unless she does.

[Beavah]

I would hate to see someone like Joe hung out to dry when taking a few simple steps to inform oneself and act accordingly would avoid that.

 

Yah, eisley, I may not be understandin'' you.

 

How exactly would anybody be "hung out to dry" by not filin'' a tour permit? Who would do the hangin''?

 

Every trip (just like every Eagle project) has some changes that happen along the way. One driver gets sick, another takes her place. Weather turns to mush so it becomes unsafe to bike so boys go to the local indoor waterpark instead. Even if you''ve got a tour permit it doesn''t mean that there can''t or shouldn''t be changes. Plenty of times there needs to be.

 

And o''course we all know and understand that a tour permit has nothing to do with BSA insurance coverage, right? We never leave our adult volunteers or chartering partners hangin''. It''s part of what the BSA promises so that we can attract charter partners and volunteers in the first place.

 

Tour permits are fine things. Units should fill ''em out when they''re asked to. Helps remind new folks of requirements, helps ensure da committee knows what the leaders are doin'', helps keep our BSA council friends in the loop. But they''re not the same thing as real safety, and they''re not the same thing as liability protection.

 

I think Joe did a fine thing, takin'' the lads out for some fun after a morning''s worth of patriotic labor. If he followed Safety Afloat or an equivalent standard then he did right by safety as well.

 

Beavah

 

[SSScout]

I hear three points to discuss:

 

1) Was the Troop out of line to ad lib a canoe trip after another scheduled activity? MHO: Certainly not. Cut brush on the trail, "hey, let''s go get pizza and hang out at Joe''s house". Finish Jeff''s Eagle project , "You boys did a heckava job. You call your folks, and if it''s OK, come on over for the evening in our pool".

Them that are there, are invited. If the Troop does the invite, it is a Troop activity. If Mr. Washakovsky does the invite, PERHAPS it is a private party, but I doubt it, in Mr. W''s position of SM.

 

2) Should the Boy Who Wasn''t There be invited because it is a Troop activity? Weeeellll, maybe. Good manners would say (on the BWWTs

part) that the family realizes he wasn''t there, (slept in, church choir practice, watched favorite saturday TV show, whatever reason), therefore he doesn''t go to the apre'' clean-up party, spur of moment or preplanned. Good manners (on the Troops part) might take the BWWI family aside and without rangor explain that Bill wasn''t there, along with Bob and Berty so they couldn''t very well be invited. There''s always next time. Ya makes yer cherce.

 

3) Does the spur of the moment NEED a tour permit? In OUR council, trips/activities within 50 miles of CO home do not require a Council Tour permit. (National TPs are another thing). Verbal permission after the fact of the initial activity (E project, road cleanup, etc.)would say that, yes, it is still a Troop activity, that proper

safety and leadership needs were fulfilled so PERHAPS a TROOP

permission slip MIGHT be needed, but since verbal permission was there, a moot point.

As the Beav sez, they are mainly for planning agenda assurance.

 

KoSing

 

 

[FScouter]

Most canoe trips I ever heard about were planned and put on the troop annual calendar, or at least the quarterly calendar update. I can''t even imagine how to plan one with an hour notice. A canoe trip is hardly equivalent to pizza after a service project.

 

What I''m hearing here is basically "we don''t need no planning or paperwork or permits if we know what we''re doing. That stuff is for other guys." I sure would hope that new Scoutmasters and other adult leaders that frequent these forums looking for advice and best practices don''t walk away thinking this is any way to run a Scouting program.

[Beavah]

Yah, F, just depends where you live, eh?

 

Around here with thousands of lakes and streams, canoein'' is pretty popular. It''s very likely that Scouters know and have already done (a dozen times!) favorite stretches of rivers and lakes with kids within a short drive of home. Fact is, I''ve run every trip available through every local outfitter at least that many times, and could sit and write you a float plan from memory. Proper supervision, PFDs, all the rest of Safety Afloat perfectly covered.

 

That ain''t uncommon. Most active troops build up that level of experience with their local area pretty quickly.

 

Just depends where yeh live, eh? Some troops with more mountains than lakes can probably do the same with climbin''. Not us, we need to put that on the calendar and plan, cause it''s a fair drive and da one obvious area gets crowded. Betcha Alaskans go out in cold weather pretty readily, while Floridians better carefully plan their cold weather experiences.

 

So yah, I guess you''re hearin'' right. If you really do know what you''re doin'', short trips can go just fine without formal plannin''. I don''t expect any of us sit and write a navigation plan to drive across town to get groceries, eh? When we''ve done things enough times, the plan is in our head. Just the same, you''re right that someone new to town may do well to plan such a trip, gettin'' out a map and askin'' for information about grocery stores.

 

Beavah

 

[eisely]

The exposure Beavah, is to damages sought by a boy and his parents. As a general rule all adults participating in a BSA sanctioned activity enjoy the protection of the insurance carried by the local council. This does not protect one from getting sued, but guarantees that the council will defend you and pay any damages up to its limits. All this depends upon compliance with BSA safety rules. If you are out of compliance, you may be naked.

 

It is certainly correct that many councils appear to take a relaxed attitude towards the need for tour permits. My larger point is that engaging in any unplanned activity that may require a tour permit runs liability risks for the adults involved if something bad happens. You may find yourself without the benefit of council liability coverage.

 

I have dealt with different outfitters and renters of canoes over the years. Some of them are very good, and some are very sloppy. They all require their customers to sign waivers of liability. Suppose you lost a boy because a PFD wasn''t properly fitted or the fabric was so rotten it failed? It may have been the outfitter''s equipment but they will do everything they can to pass liability to you, or if unsuccessful, collect from you.

 

All I am saying is, before you think about an unplanned activity, make sure you understand the BSA safety requirements, including the need for a tour permit.

[SSScout]

Canoe trip planning...

 

The boy and I can have the Grumman tied down on the roof of the Villager and paddles, bailers, PFDs, knee pads, waterproofs, first aid kit and snacks and water in the back seat within 30 minutes of our realization that I''m off work and the laundry was done yesterday. 45 minutes if the mom comes too and the two boat rack is installed. The lake is 20 minutes away. Call the Grandmom and tell her we''ll be back dinner time.

 

The SM wants to go to Boundary Waters next summer. This means the Troop needs to learn and practice on river water. PLC is all in favor. Once a month (or more often)::: Need to reserve or borrow enough boats and equipment (write the list, check it many times), get 16 or 20 boys and adults together on the same day, instruct and discuss about needs, techniques, shuttles, put ins, take outs, mileage, daylight, budget rentals, gas money to share, who has roof racks, who has trailers, ummmmm. Nearest good river for beginners is 45 minute drive to first put in, but still within 50 mile radius.

Not quite the same.

The more you do it, the quicker it can be done.

Troop Scout Trip permits? of course. Council Tour Permits? Not yet, but when needed. Need for thinking ahead and doing the "what if" game? Nachurly. See Canoeing MB book and G2SS.

 

Planning is done::: to assure the safety and well being of the participants, :::that ones expectations are met, :::and is dependant on the need to accomodate and ones knowledge of the experience of the participants.

 

KoSing

 

 

[theysawyoucomin']

Why are we assuming Mac Doaks did something unsafe.

 

Safety Aloat( Already have it, I assume) and a float plan(2 maybe 5 minutes to write and make a copy) and he''s off to the races.

 

The topic was about Whineymommy moaning that her son missed some fun.

 

If any of those included thought it was inconsiderate to do a spur of the moment activity they could just say "No , thank you."

[Gonzo1]

I think the same cold be said if the unplanned activity was a trip to the skate rink or bowling alley. Whineymommy''s boy didn''t get to go because, and only because he didn''t help with the flags.

 

You don''t get dessert if you don''t eat your dinner.

 

 

[Beavah]

All this depends upon compliance with BSA safety rules. If you are out of compliance, you may be naked.

 

THIS IS SIMPLY NOT CORRECT

 

If everyone dutifully does everything right, then there is no liability.

 

Insurance is there for when we do something wrong because that''s when we''re liable. Otherwise insurance would be useless.

 

The BSA has an excellent reputation of defending its CO''s and adult leaders no matter what. It works hard to maintain that reputation. That reputation is very important to our ability to get CO''s to charter troops, and our ability to secure good adult leaders. It is a bad and completely false urban legend that the BSA will not defend its leaders when they screw up. It does damage to Scouting to repeat that urban legend.

 

We follow G2SS and provide excellent safety on our trips because we care about kids. Good safety keeps adults and kids from harm. That''s the reason. That''s the only reason.

 

With the exception of a very small set of exclusions on the master policy (ex. skydiving), insurance ain''t got nuthin'' to do with it.

 

Beavah

 

[FScouter]

It sure is comforting to know that we can skip the paperwork, execute unsafe activities, thumb our noses at BSA, and still be "covered".

[scoutingagain]

"It sure is comforting to know that we can skip the paperwork, execute unsafe activities, thumb our noses at BSA, and still be "covered".

 

With all due respect Fred, I think that is exactly what Beaver is saying. It means as a volunteer, you don''t have to be paranoid about all the paper work and get an ulcer if you didn''t file the correct permit if your acting in good faith. That''s not the same as saying lets just do it and the heck with safety planning. It means that as a volunteer you can spend your efforts worrying about conducting a safe outing, and not worry about if all your BSA paperwork is in order or you might lose your house. We wouldn''t get many volunteers if that was the case.

 

No one is saying ignore the paperwork, it just means as far as BSA insurance coverage goes if you screw up the paperwork, or don''t have any you''ll be covered.

 

SA

[eisely]

Simply acting in good faith is likely not a viable defense against liability when both training and procedures are available to and required of volunteers. I don''t know if Joe was fully compliant with his local council policy or not. All I am trying to say is that any volunteer needs to be aware of and comply with safety standards, which includes tour permits. We all agree that tour permits are not required by local councils for everything a unit may do. The difficulty that I see recurring is that tour permit policies vary widely across councils. I don''t think anybody who is not in Joe''s council can assert that Joe''s council would not have required a tour permit, or can say how Joe''s council would respond to any particular incident where a tour permit was not obtained and something bad happened.

[Hunt]

I don''t see how getting or failing to get a tour permit would have any impact on liability unless you''re doing something for which a tour permit wouldn''t have been issued. In other words, if the activity is approvable, if the cars all had proper insurance, the leaders had the appropriate training, etc.--I can''t see how it would make a difference whether you had the permit or not. And as Beavah suggests, BSA is probably not going to decline to defend you unless you go very far off the reservation. But the tour permit is useful because it makes you review all those safety requirements, and agree that you''re going to follow them.

Note: the local tour permit is for "scheduled activities" and must be submitted two weeks in advance, see http://www.scouting.org/forms/34426.pdf. So there''s no way Joe could have obtained a tour permit for an impromptu canoe outing--especially since this happened on Labor Day.

[theysawyoucomin']

Again,

Some are assuming Joe was unsafe

 

needed but did not have a LTP

 

Why?

 

Why can''t we figure he was within the guidelins set forth by S.A. and G2SS?

 

 

Was he also running with scissors?

 

 

Petting strange dogs?

 

Drinking from a garden hose?

 

Crossing against the light?