Legal worries

[elviswahoo]

I'm an Asst Scoutmaster, and have been in scouting about eight years now. Unfortunately, based on some recent relatively minor incidents and severe parent reactions, I'm worried I'll get sued sooner or later.

 

I heard leaders in California are getting liability insurance.

 

Help! Any references or advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Beavah]

Yah, elvis. Hmmmm. Feel free to PM me if yeh feel like it with more info on your recent incidents and such.

 

In general:

 

As a volunteer in a NFP youth program (receivin' zero compensation), you're immune from civil liability by federal statute. But yeh should watch who your CO is, eh?

 

As a registered volunteer in the BSA, you are protected by the BSA's set of insurance policies on a primary basis, up to 15+ million dollars. Except for vehicles, where your vehicle insurance will be primary and BSA insurance secondary coverage.

 

As a homeowner, your homeowner's insurance will cover you for civil liability to the limits of your policy.

 

You can, for relatively little money, purchase "umbrella" liability coverage tied to your auto or homeowner's policy. Figure $100 per year for $1M of coverage or so. That's not a bad thing to do for general peace of mind, both in your scouting and non-scouting life.

 

And, finally, your troop can purchase supplementary health coverage for youth and adults, which covers the deductible for most families, or covers basic ER costs for uninsured kids. That is really cheap, but can go a long way toward makin' parents feel better after a minor accident.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eamonn]

I think Beavah has covered all the high points.

It is also a good idea when there is an incident to have some kind of written record of it.

If you do decide to write something down, you do need to be careful how you word it.

Of course you want to tell the truth, but it is to cover your tail not come back and bite you on the tail.

Be sure to inform your Council Service Center if you receive anything that looks like it might be a legal document and refer all calls to the SE.

While not always! A lot of times talk about legal action is just that talk!! When the people doing the talking find out that they have to deal with the BSA and not little old you!! They get a feeling for how expensive following it might be and tend to lose interest or they decide to not go after the individual and go after the BSA.

We had a case a few years back where a complete idiot broke all the rules and acted very badly.

(He took a small group of Boy Scouts away for the weekend, by himself and while they were away did some kind of initiation ceremony, which involved the Scouts being tied together and him carving the letter T on their foreheads. As you can imagine the press had a field day with all of this. The guy ended up serving time -18 months for assault. Some of the parents sued the Council. The BSA ended up settling with the parents in an out of court settlement. Even though the idiot involved was clearly in the wrong he didn't lose a cent.)

Eamonn

 

 

[elviswahoo]

Thanks for the reply, Beavah. I thought we had some cover from BSA, but never knew we had the other protections. If you have any references handy I'd appreciate it as I want to show a couple of other leaders who are concerned.

 

As far as the incidents...In one incident, a scout got sent back to camp without dinner after causing some trouble in the dining hall at summer camp. The mother went ballistic on the leader without even hearing the leader's side of it, brought it before our committee in witch trial fashion wanting the leader thrown out, went to council, and according to some may have threatened a lawsuit. I wasn't involved, except she went ballistic on me when I suggested her son may need to come clean and take responsibility for his involvement in burning tent straps, shooting airsoft guns in camp, etc.,(we prohibit posession of any gun on any scouting activity, but in her view it was the leaders fault the boys had the guns). You get the idea...

 

So I think to myself, what is going to happen when something bad happens? I have probably been lucky that we have never had a kid get seriously hurt or anything, but it could allways happen.

 

 

BTW, Elviswahoo....catchy name, right? If you don't want to waste time on duplicate name rejections when you sign up on a new board or website, use a ridiculous name, like elviswahoo. Works pretty well.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, OK, MommaBear goes nuclear over lovely son being sent to bed without supper? Assumin' junior isn't diabetic or somesuch, the way to handle this is for your CC to rule the topic out of order and continue with the meetin' agenda.

 

Then in a private, quiet, and polite way have the CC and another person (SM/UC/COR) sit down with MommaBear and offer her a different cup of porridge. Since clearly she isn't comfortable having junior participate in your troop, you are happy to transfer her son's records to another troop of their choice.

 

Either she gets the message or she goes away. Either way, problems solved. Just ain't worth spendin' time on bad customers like this.

 

References:

 

* Federal Volunteer Protection Act of 1997. The Act interacts with state law on the matter, so it's hard to give highly specific guidance, but here's a reasonable summary (http://www.njnonprofits.org/vol_protect_act.html).

 

* BSA provision of liability insurance is in the Charter Agreement form signed each year at rechartering. Specific generalities on the nature of the coverage are available from your council.

 

* Read your homeowner's policy . In general, though, all homeowner's policies include a tort liability component to protect your home.

 

* Talk to your auto or home insurance carrier/agent and ask about "umbrella liability" policies. They can hook yeh up.

 

* Ask your CC or DE for information on the "Health Special Risk" health insurance plan for units. In some councils, the council pays for it for all units (so it's free for the troop). In other councils, there's information and a signup option included in the recharter packet, which has to be mailed separately.

 

Beavah

 

[FScouter]

Generally, filing a suit involves finding a lawyer to take your case. Fortunately, most lawyers know enough about the law to not waste 2 minutes thinking about suing a volunteer Boy Scout leader carrying out his duties, no matter how ballistic the mom gets or how loud she screams.

 

In our council, the HSR insurance is optional accident insurance paid for by the unit. The cost is about $1 per member per year.

 

 

[eisely]

Every adult participating in an activity has some level of protection through liability policies carried by the local council. If you have liability coverage as a homeowner or renter, chances are that policy also insures your participation in volunteer activities. However, having coverage and not getting sued are not the same thing. At the risk of repeating some of the earlier posts here are some common sense advice for avoiding incidents and protecting yourself from liability when bad things happen:

 

1. Be aware of and adhere to all safety policies in Guide to Safe Scouting that relate to the activities in which you are participating.

 

2. Be aware of and adhere to your local council policies regarding tour permits.

 

3. Obtain training for the position you are performing or the specific activity in question, including Youth Protection and Wilderness First Aid. Make sure that the other adults participating with you have at least minimal training for the activity. Since Youth Protection can be done online that should not be a particularly burdensome request.

 

4. Be aware of and adhere to local council policies regarding reporting of incidents. We also have our trek leaders submit reports of outings to our committee for a variety of purposes, including rank advancement. These reports are to include discussion and disposition of significant injuries or accidents. If there were no incidents, the reports are to also note that fact.

 

5. Have your unit participate in locally sponsored accident insurance programs if available. These are inexpensive and usually are offered at re chartering time. These are essentially no fault coverages that provide supplemental coverage to ordinary health insurance. Having this coverage availabe can help alleviate distress in a family when something bad happens.

 

Knowing the rules through training, and then following the rules are the best safeguards.

 

Finally, we have never to my recollection have any serious problems with youth members. All our injuries have been to adults!!!

[packsaddle]

Beavah, Eisley, and others have done a great job of outlining the coverage and conditions. I used to wonder the same question you asked (nice name, by the way).

I can only add that Beavah underestimated the price of an umbrella policy. It could be that there are regional or state-by-state differences but mine costs $300-400 each year through State Farm. There is an additional hidden cost in that in order to qualify for the umbrella, you must get your other liability coverage (including auto) up to the level that the insurance company requires, not the minimm required by the state. All-in-all I spend the better part of an extra $500-700 each year in order not to have to 'rely on the charity of strangers.'

Sometimes I pinch myself to make sure.

[Eagledad]

>>Generally, filing a suit involves finding a lawyer to take your case. Fortunately, most lawyers know enough about the law to not waste 2 minutes thinking about suing a volunteer Boy Scout leader carrying out his duties, no matter how ballistic the mom gets or how loud she screams.

[scoutldr]

Again, I'm not a lawyer, however...

 

In order to win a tort liability claim, I believe the plaintiff would have to prove injury or harm. Missing a meal won't qualify, unless there is some underlying medical condition (e.g. diabetes) which would be exacerbated. Hurt feelings don't count. I agree with the others who advised dropping her and her little darling from the charter. It aint' worth it and there's no reason you should have to put up with raving maniacs. Next time just report the arson and illegal firearms to the Camp Director and let him deal with it. That's why he gets the big bucks ;-)...

 

Packsaddle is right on...my experience with State Farm was the same. Just a tad over $400 for a $2M umbrella policy, and I had to increase the limits on my auto coverage. That goes for any licensed driver in your house...my 24 year old son, who has his own car and insurance also had to increase his limits. He was not happy.

[elviswahoo]

Thank you all for some really good information and advice. We try to stay within the guidelines, but there are lots of them, and we have slipped up occasionally, usually trying to let the boys have fun.

 

I've got a call into my insurance agent to go over my umbrella. A friend had to use his a couple of years ago due to a bad car wreck he unfortunately caused, and if he didn't have it he would have been wiped out. I got one then, but haven't reviewed it since.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

[Beavah]

Just a tad over $400 for a $2M umbrella policy

 

Must be you guys live in really litigious states. We're a calmer, more polite bunch out here in the heartland. $95 for $1M accordin' to my agent, $165 for $2M on my last statement, with auto coverage at the state minimums.

 

Beavah

 

[Eamonn]

Maybe it's a good idea to take a look at what the Guide to Safe Scouting has posted on the scouting.org web site?

 

"The purpose of the Guide to Safe Scouting is to prepare adult leaders to conduct Scouting activities in a safe and prudent manner. The policies and guidelines have been established because of the real need to protect members from known hazards that have been identified through 90-plus years of experience. Limitations on certain activities should not be viewed as stumbling blocks; rather, policies and guidelines are best described as stepping-stones toward safe and enjoyable adventures.

In situations not specifically covered in this guide, activity planners should evaluate the risk or potential risk of harm, and respond with action plans based on common sense, community standards, the Boy Scout motto, and safety policies and practices commonly prescribed for the activity by experienced providers and practitioners."

It goes on to say:

"Scouting $$$ Pay Liability Claims

The BSA general liability program is not just insurance. In fact, insurance plays a very small part. Our greatest efforts are spent on safety and injury prevention.

 

BSA self-funds the first million dollars of each liability claim. This means that almost all money spent on a liability claim is Scouting money, not insurance money.

 

Accident and sickness insurance pays regardless of fault as long as the accident occurred during an official Scouting activity and the unit or council has purchased the coverage."

Hope this helps!

Eamonn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

BSA self-funds the first million dollars of each liability claim. This means that almost all money spent on a liability claim is Scouting money, not insurance money.

 

Yah, I'm glad they tell people that little tidbit about the structure of the insurance coverage these days.

 

But yeh gotta admit it's an absurd statement. All money is Scouting money, including what we pay for insurance premiums. And when you're self-insurin' the first $1M, good financial management requires that you structure it like an insurance system anyway, with regularly accumulated "premiums" going into an insurance reserve.

 

We do safety because we care about kids, not because of money. O'course, that insurance reserve might look temptin' to an exec lookin' for a salary increase. Good Scouting Money, that. Nope, I didn't say that!

 

B

 

[scoutldr]

"Must be you guys live in really litigious states."

 

Virginia, the Mother of Presidents, both Union and Confederate. It's not the locals, who are mostly Southern ladies and gentlemen...it's all the "come-heres"...a lot of under-25 sailors with crotch-rockets and tourists from less refined locales. My wife is an elementary school nurse and I am entrusted with boys and young men on weekends...not sure if that factored into it. We also have no protection against uninsured motorists...regardless of fault. My insurance pays the bill. You can get a license while uninsured (if you admit it) by paying an additional $400 fee to the DMV, but the victims don't get any of that. That's happened to me twice when I was rear-ended...once by a 16 year old with no insurance, and once by a young Marine coming off a 3 day bender. Not to mention illegals with no licenses or insurance...