should he stay or should he go?

[DanKroh]

Aquila wrote "We have an Aspie in our family; this doesn't sound like it at all. Aspies are largely compliant (just clueless sometimes!), generally on the quieter side except when talking about their "one thing", and aren't prone to outbursts of inappropriate language (Tourette's is something completely different). Frankly, it sounds more like poor parenting to me -- and Scouts is NOT about being these kids' parent."

 

At the risk of dragging the thread off topic, please let me clarify a few things. Asperger's Syndrome is part of the Autism Spectrum. That says two things there; first, as part of a spectrum, you are going to see a wide range of behaviors. Second, as part of a syndrome, there are often other concurrent conditions, statitically common are ADHD, OCD, Tourette's. It is very, very possible for this boy to have more than one thing going on.

 

Asperger's also presents differently depending on age. Violent behavior can be very common approaching adolescence and puberty. Adults with AS tend more toward the compliant and clueless. Again, it's hard to generalize when the presentation of a single person can vary greatly over the course of his or her life.

 

As packsaddle said, they are all just labels, anyway, but one point where it makes a difference is the efficacy of medications. ADHD medications can work wonders for kids whose only issue is ADHD. However, ADHD meds will DO NOTHING, and may even exacerbate symptoms, for someone with Asperger's.

 

I wish people would be less quick to label kids with a neurological disorder as having bad parents, being willful, or just being bad kids. This is part of who they are, not a flaw in how they were raised. Sorry, but this kind of prejudice is a real pet peeve of mine.

[Crew21_Adv]

Lisa,

 

Greetings!

 

I'm coming into this late, and you have already received some excellent advice. I believe most of your fellow Scout Leaders have seen similar in their Packs, Troops and Crews. You can probably say that most of our Fellow Scouters have seen the full spectrum. From Boys (and Girls in the Crew) that need alot of attention and supervision; to those that are a Scoutmasters dream and seem to have been born wearing the Scout uniform.

 

My own children sometimes make me slap my forehead, watching some of the most stupid and unsafe stunts during Scouting. (If I'm not slapping my forehead, I'm clutching my chest) Then they will also turn around and do the most remarkable good turn and assist a younger Scout to learn (using EDGE) a Scouting skill and advancement requirement.

 

I would hope that all boys in America deserve the opportunity to join the BSA, and would all be Scouts. But bottomline, it is up to the youth, their family, and (as you and a few fellow Scouters stated in this forum), it is up to the leaders and if those leaders can effectively educate and manage that specific youth.

 

While Scouting is one of the best youth programs out there (I would say it is the best), it is not the only youth program. There are various youth sports, Junior Achievement, Campfire Boys and Girls, AWANA, FFA, 4H, Boys and Girls Club, YMCA, the list of positive and character developing organizations go on for a while.

 

Now, before you go as far as recommending other youth programs, here is an alternative to saying "he should go".

 

Some 12 year old Scouts may not be mature enough to work within a Patrol and a Troop. (Equally, some adults are not mature enough to drop being an individual and work in a team). But by maturing to the age of 13 or 14, these youth can effectively become members of a troop and continue to advance.

 

As an alternative to your Troop Committee deciding "He should go", maybe this young Scout can be enrolled into the Lone Scouting Program. Alot more work and parent involvement at home would be required. Your home Troop could allow the Scout and parent to take a year long furlough from the Troop, or maybe a two year leave of absence while maintaining a slower but calmer advancement and continuous enrolled membership as a "Lone Scout". Check the eligibility on the fact sheet.

http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-515.html

 

Then after a year (or two) the "Lone Scout", if he is mature enough for the adults to manage, and he is capable of working with other Scouts in a Patrol and Troop, then transfer him back into the Troop.

 

I believe this alternative opportunity could lead to a win-win, before your Troop Committee says "He should go".

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[ASM915]

Lisa,

 

Been there. I agree with Dan and Beav. First thing that popped into my head was AS. My youngest attends a charter school for ADD/ADHD, Bipolar, Autistic Spectrum and AS kids. The AS kids can be all over the spectrum depending if there are other co-existing conditions which complicate matters.

 

About 7 years ago I was very involved in the schools outdoor program for a year. We had one AS in the 7th grade class. By the way the school was set up as a Pack/Troop ran during school. This lad was big, over 6 feet and probably a solid 275 lb's. He had trouble with the social cues, interacting with his classmates, and expressing himself quietly. One time while canoeing in the lake about 50 yards off shore, he became upset with his partner over something, decided he wasn't going to stay in the canoe. Over the side he went and swam to the beach fully dressed, with yours truly right beside him. He looked over at me with surprise and asked "What are you doing?" I told him I thought I would also go for a swim with him because it was hot out. We swam to the shore sat down and relaxed. He looked over and Said "Your crazy." My reply was I didn't jump first. We both sat there and chuckled.If handled right, we were able to work with him on handling his outbursts. Deep down he was a very loving lad and would give a hug.

 

So much for the story.

 

Lisa,

 

1) Set up a private meeting with mom. Just you and her, maybe over coffee, some afternoon when the kids are in school. Let her know that you see how hard things must be for her. Let her know that you like and care for her son, and you want to see him succeed in Scouting.

See if she'll open up to another female.

See if she'll let you in a little.

See if social services are involved, like KC John asked. If they are not involved, maybe it is because she doesn't know the process and needs direction. RESPITE could help give her a break on the weekends.

 

Once she realizes that she has a friend, maybe she won't be so defensive, and may be open to suggestions.

Maybe you can find put what kind of diagnosis the lad has.

Maybe she will be willing to share any techniques she may have to de-escalate situations.

 

2) Follow Beav's advice. See if Big Brothers has a Scouter in their ranks that may have AS experience and would be willing to work with this lad, both in and out of Scouting.

This person ends up being the shadow, taking some of the stress off of the leaders.

 

3) Whether the mother is helpful or not, set up a Disability MB as a Troop activity, (yeah I know guys, but it's one of the MB's that should be done this way because everyone needs to be aware, no more running and hiding your heads in the sand), with the guest being an AS peson along, with a person who works with AS. This way the troop, Scouts and Scouters alike receive some knowledge and training on AS. Now there's no excuse for them complaining "We aren't trained".

 

4) Take Dan's advice and set up a Behavioral IEP over a 6 month period.

- "You meet these expectations and behaviors, at meetings, and you get to participate in this activity." (Bribing does have it's place, and can work if used properly.) Have the DE and DC involved in this meeting, as well as the SM, ASM, CM, Parents, Scout, SPL (if mature enough to handle this and has good judgement), so everyone understands the expectaions, and have it in writing.

- Ask the lad how he preceives Scouting, and what he wants out of it.

 

5)Since the troop is holding the Scout up to certain standards and expectations, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander".

- Set goals and expectations of the leadership of the Troop for the same period, BSA Special Needs Training, with an emphasis on AS.

- Sensativity training. AREN"T WE SUPPOSE TO BE "KIND"?

- Consequences for the other Scouts for bullying, teasing (in a mean way),

and harrassing this Scout. Teach tolerance and patience.

 

Enough for now. Good Luck.

 

Eric P.

ASM915

[Lisabob]

I want to thank everyone here for your responses; they have been very helpful to me. We had our first meeting of the year last night and this young man was there, enthusiastic as ever to be back doing "scout stuff." Although I'm pretty sure I am in the minority, I do genuinely like this young man and especially his zest for life. He doesn't do things halfway, that's for sure.

 

We also have a new SM this year, someone who has some personal experience working with kids with disabilities and who is also a highly organized type with good communication skills. I noted that he, the two previous SMs (also both good people, each with his own skill set to bring to bear), and the CC sat down for a while last night with this boy's mom. So I am hoping that they had a chance to talk openly and that it was a positive interaction for all involved. I'm pretty sure the opportunity will arise to share some of your suggestions here with the rest of the adult leaders too.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Lisa,

 

Email sent per your PM. I pray for success

 

John

[AnneinMpls]

Good morning Lisa! How are things going for the troop and this young man?

Anne in Mpls

[Lisabob]

Hi Anne,

 

Thanks for asking. Here''s the update:

 

The topic did come up at our committee meeting and, as I rather expected, about half of the adults seem to just be waiting for an opportunity to ask this boy to leave. That hasn''t happened yet though. At her meeting with the current SM, two previous SMs, and the CC (all of whom actively camp with the troop and most of whom are very patient people), the mom was asked to come up with some specific strategies that the troop leadership can use to work with her boy. At our committee meeting there was a lot of discussion about how the mom''s apparent unwillingness to acknowledge her son''s problem or share information has made it harder for us to work with him.

 

Some people also jumped to some conclusions about what the boy''s problems are (or aren''t) and how and why the mom is (or isn''t) dealing with it. Those jumping to conclusions seemed the most ready to just be done and ask him to leave without delay.

 

It was pointed out that the meeting between the mom and the 3 SMs & CC is the first time in a year and a half that the mom has been directly confronted and specifically asked for information and assistance. It is a good step to take, though personally I wish we''d taken it some time ago.

 

Also, patrol membership has been juggled so that this boy is no longer in with those boys whom he antagonizes most and who seem to like to push his buttons at every possible opportunity as well. As trying as this boy can be at times, he''s not the only boy who has acted poorly - there are a few who seem to love to goad him as well. Hopefully a little distance will benefit all of them.

 

However, neither mom nor the boy attended our troop meeting this week (after the sit-down with the 3 SMs and CC) and the boy is not signed up for our next camp out. This could be due to other conflicts, or it could be they''ve decided to move on. We''ll see.

 

My main concern has been and continues to be that we do this "right" as much as possible. That is, that we take logical steps to at least try to make it work rather than looking for any excuse to pitch the boy out. I think I''m seeing some progress along those lines. If, at the end of the day, the family chooses to leave anyway, that''s their option.

 

So it is still very much in play.

[PeteM]

Bump,

Because it has been almost one year, and I would like to know the outcome.

 

Pete

[Docrwm]

Old post - sorry I misread the year - oops.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

[Apache Bob]

Lisabob - As does PeteM, I would like to know what you and the committee worked out.

[Lisabob]

We lost him. After the meeting between the SM, past SMs, CC, and parent, the boy did not return for any additional meetings. I have heard that he was considering other troops but I've watched and his name has not appeared on any rosters of any troops in our district. I doubt "mom" would have bothered to find a troop in another district so I can only conclude he's not in scouting at this time.

 

I have mixed feelings still. On one hand, I know that the troop collectively breathed a sigh of relief and the boys were very happy not to have to deal with him. On the other hand I didn't, and still don't, think the troop was pro-active enough in trying to work with the boy's parent from day one. If we had been more pro-active, the boy might even have left sooner, but at least I'd have felt we truly did everything we could do to try to make things work.

 

If there's good news, while we haven't had any new boys join who present the kind of behavioral challenge that this young man presented, I've seen a greater willingness among many adults to reach out to parents of other new scouts with special needs. I can't be sure that's a direct result of the above experience, but maybe.

 

[jr56]

LisaBob,

Sorry to hear that the boy dropped out. I'm sure you did everything you could to save the situation, but they have to meet you halfway for anything to work out. I hope the young man continues to develop satisfactorally, even if out of scouts.

[croushorn]

I feel for you Lisa, those are the tough ones.

I ran into one of my former Scouts the other day, he must be in his early 20s by now. He was in a real beater car at our Y waiting on someone to come out. I pulled in the space right next to him. The windows were down and he looked rough. Long unkempt hair, scraggly beard, tatoos, smoking. He acted like he didn't see me until I said hello to him, by name. He had a look on his face that I was a person he was terrified to see. The spark in the eye from his young teen years was gone. Short and sad conversation.

Those ones hurt.

 

(This message has been edited by Ursus Snorous Roarus)