should he stay or should he go?

[Eamonn]

When I first read what Lisa posted my gut reaction was that here is a kid who really could get a lot out of Scouting and needs Scouting.

 

As you may know one of my great loves is dogs.

I'm mad about dogs. (More about that in another thread!!)

My brother -n-law has a nice looking dog.

I'm not sure where he got it?

I do know that the dog has bite me once and OJ twice!!

We both now try and do everything possible not to visit my brother-in-law.

A pal of mine was given a big Rottweiler (Come to think of it they are all big!!) She seemed like a very nice dog. Bad thing was that she tore the house apart, she ate his couch, chewed anything and everything. In the end she had to go.

He was "Kind enough" to ask me if I wanted her?

I didn't like the idea of what would happen to her if I said no. But I knew deep in my heart that her being around would not be good for Rory and Joe. I knew that I wasn't a good enough dog trainer to get her to change her ways and I really didn't have the time.

OK, I do realize that dogs and boys are different.

Maybe if this Lad had a parent who was willing and able to help out and work with the Lad? Things might be different.

Most of us are not trained or well enough equipped to take on a challenge like this.

I sure as heck don't believe that Scouts and Scouting is only for "Good little Boys"!

I don't know if a real heart to heart with his Mum, would result in any long term differences?

I don't know if there is a unit close to hand that might be more able to manage the situation?

I'd surely love for him to be able to continue, but I'm unsure if that's possible?

Maybe a pow-wow with all the leaders might help?

If it's just a couple of people having a moan and a groan? You can get past that!!

My brother-in-law has kept the dog that bites!!

I think he like the idea that it keeps me away!!

Eamonn.

(Joe and Rory now have a sister -Not a Rottweiler!!)

[John-in-KC]

Beavah, offlist, pointed out a vital error in my post:

 

If the Scout is removed from the trip, only those monies he's put into the Troop, not yet spent, get returned. In most cases that means the pro-rated share of Troop fees.

 

Any other monies stay with the troop.

 

I'm sorry for the confusion.

 

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On the subject of stay/go:

 

- Part of the problem here is the Mom. Her choices on disabilities awareness seem to be making it difficult for the other youth of the troop to "buy in." The reaction, if I read you correctly Lisa is the other Scouters (lesser extent Scouts) are less willing to invest in him.

 

- I understand she is a single mom. Are there any uncles (fairly important in Islamic culture as I recall) who are willing to step up to the plate and support this young man?

 

- Finally, how much special needs support does your District and Council have available? I wish the one special ed teacher was willing to assist, but I can't fix that challenge. Frankly, I'm not sure anyone can

 

Here's hoping you keep telling the story here, Lisa.

[Lisabob]

I appreciate all of the feedback. This is really a tough one for me. It is interesting that several of you suggested that this boy may have Aspergers Syndrome. We've had a couple of boys in the troop in the recent past who had AS, and they were NOTHING LIKE this young man in terms of their social skills and difficulties. So AS didn't occur to me as a possibility here.

 

Part of the problem is, indeed, the mom. I don't blame her for being defensive - this boy has a reputation and has been removed from all sorts of programs (school, rec. sports, cub scouts) in the past. We lost an entire den of potential cross-over scouts because they found out "he" was joining our troop too. (He had been kicked out of that pack the year before.) So it must be really hard on her and opening up may seem like an invitation to removal - yet again.

 

The cultural stuff is also difficult. The boy's father is from the Middle East (not mom) and all of his other relatives on his dad's side remain there, not here. Further, "dad" is only sporadically involved in the boy's life and is not supportive at all of (more like, actively hostile to)scouting. I'm not certain but I don't think "mom" has any nearby relatives to fall back upon, or at least, I've never heard the boy or "mom" mention any.

 

I think my biggest concern is that I haven't seen our troop take the steps I think we ought to take before just throwing up our hands. Yes, this boy is difficult to work with. Yes, he requires a great deal more supervision than most boys, and yes, that can be a drain on our volunteers. And heaven knows, yes, most of these volunteers have been (or have tried to be) patient; the boy has been with the troop for a year and a half now. They're good-hearted people.

 

But we haven't called in any experts to work with our ASMs/SM/Committee members to teach us about working with boys with his problems. We haven't, as a group, even looked at the supplemental training on special needs children put out by the BSA. So far as I know, only a couple of us have looked at it individually, and we're committee members rather than the front-line ASMs. We haven't looked the disabilities awareness MB. We haven't worked with our youth leaders to teach them better ways than just yelling to deal with this boy (yelling and bullying tend to make him melt down, but that's the first reaction that a lot of inexperienced youth/adult leaders tend to have when he doesn't listen/respond the way they want him to). The previous SM hasn't taken a systematic approach to working with "mom" because communication really isn't his big strength and "mom" has hardly been forthcoming. The previous CC wanted to oust this boy last year (he's a no nonsense type of guy), and the current CC, I'm pretty sure, would like to do the same rather than dealing with it.

 

So I guess I'm really worried that what we have here is a fait accompli. We're going to have a committee meeting where this gets brought up, people are going to complain about him and their lack of training to work with a boy like this, and then they're going to vote to show him the door without ever taking these steps. Am I unreasonable in expecting that we at least try all (or most) of the above first? I expect I'm likely to be a voice in the wilderness on this though.

 

A couple of other quick points: there is a "special needs" troop in our area but the members are not like this boy at all in terms of their disabilities and it wouldn't be a good fit. The SM of the other larger troop in town, while a friend of mine, can be the loud yelling type (not a good match) and has flat-out told me he wouldn't let this boy into "his" troop anyway. There's a third troop, but they're pretty inactive these days.

 

I have an email in to our DE to inquire about district and council resources. John, if I don't get a helpful response there, I'll PM you.

[Beavah]

Yah, Lisabob, I think yeh gotta be a bit realistic, eh?

 

A Merit Badge and a one-hour BSA trainin' aren't going to solve this problem. Mom's clearly at her limit, and a conversation with the SM isn't goin' to get her the tools she needs to be a more effective parent.

 

Yeh gotta look at whether you can provide the depth of trained, committed, personal, individual attention this boy and family need. Yeh gotta plug in beyond your current staff. That's why I was steerin' you to Big Brothers/Big Sisters (introduce a long-term, committed male role model in the boy's whole life, who can also be involved in Scouting). Plug into social services as J-in-KC suggests. If you're goin' to work this problem, yeh gotta really work it. Scouters meetin' with school officials and docs eh? Bein' a real part of the team.

 

Or not.

 

But no half-measures, eh? Just ain't fair to any of the kids. This boy needs a real, long-term stable positive environment to get through his issues, with a lot of tight feedback to medical and counseling professionals. If yeh can't provide that, help find the lad someone who can, but don't cheat him by pretending a single training session is goin' to do it.

 

Beavah

 

[frank10]

I expect that no matter what you do this boy will be out soon... That said, Please don't let them rush it. When (if) the boy is shown the door he should be able to directly tie it back to his own actions the troop owes him that much. Give him rules to follow and predictable (and fair) penalties. If you kick him out now he will feel that it was unfair and the troop just didn't like him.

 

Let him know what is required to remain at an event and what is required to remain a member of the troop. Support him but stick to the rule. Let him know that you want him to stay but that it is up to him.

 

Standardize things as much as you can. Use the "sign" to quite the group. Start things on time. Require the entire patrol to wait on Grace before anyone starts eating. Watch his behavior, he may be the first to get board but may also be a great indicator that the other boys are only 10 min behind him.

 

This allows him cues on how to react rather than having to read the situation. In the end, the effort put into him is exactly what is best for the troop anyhow.

 

In the end, he just might prove me wrong and make it. Best luch to him and you.

[Oak Tree]

This situation reminds me of the way some of my ASMs react to the occassional challenging kid. Their reaction is often "Let's send him home!", or "We should require his parent to be here." I haven't had one get to the point yet of "Let's kick him out of the troop", but it wouldn't surprise me. It's often the newer leaders who have that reaction, as they aren't yet acclimated to the ways the troop can deal with some of the challenges.

 

I tend to be a bit more patient, and we usually figure out a way to work things out. But we have not, from what I can tell, run across a situation quite as bad as what you're describing. And while the troop could certainly come up with ways to deal with it, you'd need to have some leaders who felt that was the right approach. If the Scoutmaster and Committee Chair want the boy gone, I think it's going to be an uphill battle for you (you haven't actually said how the Scoutmaster feels, I guess, as I re-read your posts.) If these guys are all talking amongst themselves and have decided how they want to handle it, it's hard to stop that momentum.

 

The Boy Scouts aren't subject to the ADA, and anyway, your leaders are arguing that it places an undue burden on them to try to accommodate this boy. I think that all the things you list are good things to try, and I'd love to have you in my troop helping out with things like this behind the scenes, but unless some of your leadership is willing to listen to you for some reason, it's going to be difficult to get them to give it an honest try. Even if you convince them to give it one more shot, I think they'll likely just be waiting for evidence of failure, and then they'll again want to pull the trigger.

 

I'm not sure I'd be willing to make it a personal crusade. Is there anyone else who's your ally in this situation?

 

And it's hard to tell from afar what the right decision would be. Maybe if I were there I'd be in favor of terminating his membership as well. But I've been in similar situations, and I do know that people can be a little bit eager to go for the simple solution when they're frustrated.

 

Oak Tree

[AnneinMpls]

Establishing a rapport with one consistent person can help a great deal. Is there perhaps one committee member who can be this person for this young man? It *is* draining for the troop leadership - they have enough on their plates, and the boy's needs are likely greater than can be handled by the boy leadership - PLs and so forth, unless you've got some stellar JASM types.

Aspergers is a tricky thing - it can look totally different form one kid to another. This is partly because youngsters will try just about anytihng to try to cope ontheir own with a disability that goes mostly unrecognized. (Girls tend to handle it a bit differently, because they more readily develop the skill of observing and copying - though a girl with aspergers may observe and copy the social skills without really understanding any of the why!)

Some techniques that can work well:

Foreshadowing: verbally go over the ins and outs of whatever the next activity will entail: we're going outside for a litter pickup around the church - see the PLs over there? They're getting ready to pass out the garbage bags - that's a clue that we're leaving really soon. It's time now to check in with your PL. You only need your jacket - the rest of your stuff can stay here till the end. (Ok, you get the idea- you'll know which bits and pieces your particular youth will need interpreted)

http://www.parentingaspergers.com/aspergers11.htm looks possibly helpful. I just signed up on it and got the first free email, which is pretty sketchy stuff: basically reducing agressive behavior may require substituting other more acceptable bahaviors We'll see if the next ones are better!

http://www.aspergers.org/myths_about_aspergers_syndrome.htm is better.

http://www.aspergers.org/social_stories.htm

http://www.aspergers.org/insight_into_aspergers_quiz.htm Ok, found a gem! Suggest you have all SM and ASMS take this - but ask them to try to get the answers wrong! Wrong answers pull up lots of info.

http://brainhe.com/staff/methods/aspergers.html is written from the perspective of higher education in the UK but still useful.

http://www.amazon.com/Incredible-Assisting-Understanding-Interactions-Controlling/dp/1931282528/ref=pd_sim_b_3/104-6059389-5136707?ie=UTF8&qid=1133367041&sr=1-1 looks like it could be a really good easy to implement resource - might even get this for my own kiddo!! The book title is The Incredible Five Point Scale in case the link is too long.

Blue skies!

Anne in Mpls

[AnneinMpls]

Ok, found another good article: really accessible. Sorry for the advertizing!

Anne in Mpls

 

http://school.familyeducation.com/aspergers/parenting/36123.html

[standerson]

I've had a boy with Aspergers Syndrome in my den for the past three years. This young man is about 5'7" and 160 pounds. I sat down with the dad and we decided it would be best if dad was as all the den meetings.

 

That worked out until dad got deployed to Iraq. Stepmom was not interested in getting involved. I did a lot of soul searching and decided, with the help of another dad, that this young man needed Scouts.

 

For that year, we took turns picking him up and bringing him to Scouts. The young man has come a long way. He's been a handful, but it's been worth it.

 

 

[Aquila]

You can't sacrifice the rest of them for the one who is errant.

 

I'd suggest that he take up Lone Scouting until his emotional problems are under control. That way, he can still participate with troops when he is having "better" days, and can work on his own when he is not.

 

You can feel for the kid all you want, but feel for those whose experience he is negatively impacting as well.

 

ETA: You're going to lose more Scouts -- not just those who would've joined the troop, but those who can't take it any more. We have an Aspie in our family; this doesn't sound like it at all. Aspies are largely compliant (just clueless sometimes!), generally on the quieter side except when talking about their "one thing", and aren't prone to outbursts of inappropriate language (Tourette's is something completely different). Frankly, it sounds more like poor parenting to me -- and Scouts is NOT about being these kids' parent.(This message has been edited by Aquila)

[Crossramwedge]

We have had a cub in our "Pack" since he was a "Tiger" and who is now a 5th grade "Webelos". Now whether he has AS, I do not know. But from what has been described here, it sounds just like him. He is on medication. He has a lot going against him at home also. Remember, a kid does not get to choose the circumstances he is born into. He is watched at all times. Some "packs" would wash there hands of him. They would not put up with it. But this is about life and in the 5 years he has been in the "Pack" I do not believe we have had one "cub"/parent leave because of him. If they did, we did not know it. Has the pack suffered because of him, maybe a little. Are we equipped to handle him? We have been doing it so far. The other boys seem to be thriving and moving on. Kids are resilient, they bounce back. We will continue to pour our resources into this young man. "Scouting" seems to be the only bright spot in his life. We may come to point where we can not handle him any more and then a hard decision will have to be made. Many years have been invested in this young man, we are doing what we can. We do not want to "Throw" him away.

[packsaddle]

I've been following this with interest. I tend to agree with Dan and Beavah. Without arguing over ADHD and AS, they're just names we attach to the symptoms anyway, this boy may just have a void in his life that he needs to fill but can't articulate his need other than through his behaviors. Scouting might not be the thing that can fill that void. We tend to comprehend others through our own life experiences and, like imaginary friends, that comprehension just doesn't quite cut it at times. Scouting, as much as we might think it offers something for all boys, obviously doesn't when you consider the number who have chosen not to be part of it. And it is possible that this is for the best for all of us.

 

It is possible that there is another path for this boy that might serve him better than scouting. Scouting obviously can't be the cure-all for everyone and this boy might find something else more to his liking as well as to his benefit.

For example, Eamonn actually touched on this a little, perhaps unintentionally. If the boy does not display symptoms of cruelty to others (and you haven't mentioned it so I assume he doesn't) then he might benefit from another program in your area in which he cares for animals, better if it involves babies as well as old, sick, or dying animals. 4-H comes to mind. Combined with a mentor, he may come to appreciate the presence and struggles of other lives, animals in this case, and be able to develop more awareness of the persons around him as well. Life itself is really what he and all the rest of us have to come to terms with, and to confront it in our own lives it sometimes helps to have the clarifying (or confusing) experience of really watching other creature silently accept or endure their paths. Raise a lamb or some baby chicks to maturity and then kill and prepare them for food. That is a humbling lesson in reality that gives one a pretty good benchmark for comparison. I've seen this really change a young person in the past. I'm watching it happen right now.

 

Another possibility is to get him into something that requires, and ALLOWS, really concentrated focus on an activity of interest. This is a little riskier because it takes him out of wide social contact but it could involve things like a chess club, an archery club, or even an after-hours science club in which the kids can pursue their own interests. He would be among like-minded children and, who knows, may discover talentd he didn't know he had.

 

Just a couple of suggestions from someone who has dealt with a few of these.

[Gunny2862]

Lisabob, I hope you are getting the input you need here.

 

One more thing, unless you are committed to helping out with this situation in particular, there may not be anyone to carry the ball in terms of actually doing the work with this boy. In that case I really like wingnuts suggestion that he be allowed to EARN his way out rather than being thrown out. I would hope your SM would see the value in this idea.

 

If during the time he is hopefully not earning his way out - see if you can get at least one of the ASM's another interested parent and yourself up to speed on the disabilities training. If nothing else you will be better prepared to make decisions about any issues like this one that occur in the future.

 

Good Luck!

 

All, Is the Lone Scout program really an option for this kind of issue? I don't know.

[AnneinMpls]

I'd like to clarify that just because you "have an aspie in the family" does *not* mean you know how every person with Aspergers expresses their disability. There is wide wide wide variation: some are very quiet and compliant, but this is not the majority of folks with aspergers! My own kiddo truly believes, really really emphatically believes, that in order for people around her to understand that she is upset, that she must scream shrilly at the top of her lungs. Now, she's done fine at summer camp, day camp, all the rest of it, but I prep the adults working with her to expect "the scream that wakes the dead" sometime on the first day towards the end of the day, during a transition of activity. Sure enough, I either get a phone call in midscream, in which I remind them of exactly what I told them, or in the case of more on the ball staff, I get a phone call the next day saying, man, you were so right! They heard her from one side of camp to the other. Now, am I a poor parent? No. We have discussed practiced, roleplayed ad nauseum exactly what she can do when she's upset. Has it made a difference? Well, last year at school it happend twice at the beginning of the school year in 6th grade. She claims to finally "get it" and we'll see what happens this year

Physically acting out is not at all uncommon for these kids - poor social skills, lack of communicative skills, little to no perception of what's going on either with others' emotions or their own, and yha, it's not a surprise that these kids may sometimes get violent, though not generally in a raging way, but in a I'll do whatever it takes to get you to back off and leave me alone.

Generally speaking, violent behavior can be diminished by responsible adults changing their own behavior and perception of aspie behavior before it escalates, and that's really really key.

Anne in Mpls

[Gunny2862]

I will emphatically agree with AnneinMpls. Not just about Aspergers and its manifestations but that ADD and ADHD are also expressed differently by different people, which is why context is so important when answering or asking these kinds of questions.. You don't always have a problem child, occasionally you just have one who needs a different kind of interaction/expectation.

 

And while having had ADD and ADHD in my family doesn't make me an expert on those topics I probably know more about it than most people who are only dealing with someone one evening and one weekend a month. As does Annie about Aspergers I suspect.