should he stay or should he go?

[Lisabob]

Sorry in advance for the long post to follow - I'm trying to work out a situation though, and would appreciate your thoughtful feedback.

 

We have a scout in our troop with some serious emotional disabilities. These include difficulty picking up on social cues, tendency to use inappropriate language and pursue topics of conversation that are just better left alone, impulse control, and sometimes anger management issues. The scout is also severely ADHD and while he's on medication, apparently he does not respond well to some of the more common treatment regimens. At school in the past he has had an adult aide assigned to him at all times, though my understanding is that this is no longer the case and he now is mainstreamed most of the time (in fact, he's a couple of grades ahead in math). He's also extremely bright, loves to talk, and finds politics and religion to be fascinating subjects. He's particularly fascinated by the Middle East, as he is a Muslim with family from that part of the world. Unfortunately this sometimes leads to some rather volatile avenues of conversation with other boys (and occasionally, adults too), who do not tend to have a lot of understanding of that part of the world. In the past he has had some physical altercations with other boys and is not well liked by pretty much any of the youth in the troop.

 

His mom is a single parent who has kept him in scouting so he'd have some strong, good, male role models in his life. She recognizes what scouting has done/does for her son, but she's not terribly available to participate directly, and honestly her son is better behaved when she's not around. He tends to walk all over her and she allows for it.

 

I've known this boy, mainly through scouting, since he was in 1st grade, when he joined as a Tiger cub. I've seen him grow and gain more control over himself each year, although I also recognize he's a real handful. As a caveat, I don't know him any better than I know most other boys/families in scouting - but I see that this is about the only consistent and positive interaction he's had with other kids over the years (he's been kicked out of practically everything else at other times, due to behavioral problems).

 

I'm posting all of this because I want your input. This boy has been with the troop for about 1 1/2 years. He has gone to summer camp twice now. Last summer I was there for part of the week with them, and while he was a bit of a challenge, I didn't see him acting out any worse than some of our other "difficult" boys, who don't even have the medical problems that this kid does. This summer I was not there, and the trip was a long one (10 days total). This boy apparently got on everyone's nerves and there is now talk among the adults of asking him to leave the troop before we start up again in a couple of weeks this fall.

 

I'm really divided on this. On one hand, the fact that he benefits from scouting is undeniable. And there's a strong case to make for scouting not being just for the "easy" or "good" kids, but for all kids. I fear that what's happening here is that people just don't want to deal with him, and this talk about kicking him out is just taking the easy road. Not very scout-like, in my book. Also I don't think this issue has been dealt with head-on by the SM, CC, and parent. There hasn't been enough (in my view) open dialog about the difficulties this boy's behavior tends to cause, or about how best to handle him. But I can't force this to occur, as I'm neither the SM nor the CC.

 

On the other hand, I respect (most of) the people who are voicing a desire to see him gone. They're tired of dealing with him, and his mom doesn't seem to be able to exert more control so just asking her to attend isn't that useful. On longer trips, this boy really requires supervision of two adults at all times (keeping 2-deep leadership in mind). Even on shorter weekend camp outs, he annoys the other boys and sometimes adults. None of the boys want him in their patrol. Occasionally he is actually a safety problem, due to the impulse control issues. Several adults have said that they just don't feel equipped to deal with him. We don't want to exhaust our volunteers either.

 

I'm pretty sure this is a topic that will come up at our next committee meeting in a couple of weeks. I'd really appreciate your constructive thoughts on how to approach the situation, and on what your feelings would be as the on-the-ground volunteers who have to actually deal with a boy like this one. Where's the threshold for you?

 

 

 

 

 

[PeteM]

One thing that your troop "might" want to work on >>together

[le Voyageur]

 

Speaking from experience, I'll be the first to say it. He goes for the greater good, you can't save them all.

[Lisabob]

Just to briefly address Pete's suggestions, which I appreciate, because I think they're relevant to why this situation is so difficult (at least for me):

 

1) The mom doesn't tend to want to discuss her son's medical problems. While she acknowledges that he's "quirky," she's quite defensive when the topic is broached by others. I don't think she'd allow for his doctor to address the troop, even just the adults. She wants him to be treated as much as possible like a "typical" kid, all evidence to the contrary, rather than singling him out. I don't know if she's seriously in denial about it all, or if she is just being a naturally protective parent, trying to give her child as "normal" an experience as possible. And, as she doesn't care for camping, has no outdoor skills, and doesn't seem to have any control over her son's behavior, inviting her on the camp outs actually adds a bit to the troop burden (he's worse when she's there). Should we do this anyway? I'm not sure one way or the other.

 

2) I've looked at the ADHD material put out by national. So have a few other adults in the troop, notably the two committee members who are licensed to teach special ed (one wants the boy gone, the other doesn't). It is solid. But I can't force others to look at it, or take it seriously. I've asked the CC to dedicate a leader meeting to the supplemental training more than once. No dice. Some of the adult leaders really do not have the experience to deal with the situation - and maybe some don't want to, either. I am at a loss for how to overcome that attitude?!

[John-in-KC]

I like Pete's idea.

Here's a resource from the National website. Don't know how much it will help:

http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-508.html

I think now is a good time to call your District/Council special needs folks. If your Council doesn't have any, ask your DE/SE for the contacts at Region or in a neighboring Council. Hopefully, there are resources available. Is there a Troop in your Council which focuses on special needs?

You need to talk with your DE/DC before you do this anyway. BSA makes a point of serving kids with all manner of disabilities. You do not want to expose your Chartered Partner to a discrimination (mental ability) claim. Most assuredly that is not a good thing.

If necessary, Lisa, PM me offlist with your email. Our District special needs chair has resources that tap very deep. I'll point you to her

Finally, if you do decide to drop the boy, there are some things you need to do:

 

- Remit him the balance of his Troop fees for the current year.

 

 

- Make sure his advancement and activity records are current. Make sure he and Mom get copies in paper and digits.

 

- You know this, so I'm preaching to the choir ... Make sure the Troop understands the most they can do is say "you're no longer welcome" and refuse to put him on-charter at the next recharter cycle. CC needs to BE PREPARED to answer to the DC why he has a "lost boy", if your District is anything like ours. He's not out of Scouting, just your Troop.

John-in-KC)

(John,asked if I would edit this post for him - Ea.) (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[DanKroh]

Wow, Lisabob, that's a tough one. I can't say I have any easy answers to your question, but here are some experiences and thoughts that might help.

 

First, you could easily be describing my son. Which makes me think that this boy has more going on than just ADHD. He displays many of the symptoms of Asperger's Syndrome, as well. Unfortunately, there is no medication regimen for AS, which may be part of why he doesn't respond well to medication.

 

As such, I would approach the mother and let her know my concerns about the possiblity of AS, and mention that if it hasn't happened already (and it may have, but she certainly has the right to keep it private), she may want to have him evaluated for AS.

 

Now, on to the troop situation. After 2 1/2 years, my son and I are considering changing troops. It is becoming more and more evident that this troop just doesn't "get it"-- that these behaviors are due to an invisible disability, and not a character flaw. These kids are just as disabled (or differently-abled, if you prefer) in their own way as anybody who uses a wheelchair, or is blind or deaf. Yet, if anyone suggested that we kick a kid out of a troop because his having to use a wheelchair is annoying everyone, I'd bet that quite a fuss would be made.

 

However, I do recognize that behavioral disabilities like ADHD and AS can be very difficult to manage. Especially since these kids ARE generally very intelligent, and can have periods where they act like neurotypical (the preferred term to "normal") kids, that it is very easy for those around them to forget that they are not doing these things on purpose, and really, have very little, if any, control over these behaviors. And yes, sometimes these behaviors can become a safety issue, either to themselves or others. As someone else said in another thread, having ADHD (or AS) does not excuse bad behavior, even if it does explain it.

 

So it is quite a conundrum. It's too bad that Mom can't be more active in her son's troop experience. I had decided before my son joined the troop that he would not go on any campout or troop activity if I couldn't also attend. I don't hover or interfer with his interactions, but I am there as a safety net if the situation escalates. And often, I can headoff an escalation by doing things that no other leader would know to do, or be expected to do, or even allowed to do (for example, he responds well to hugging when approaching meltdown).

 

However, I am disappointed with the troop on several levels. I have offered since day one to meet with the leadership and talk about AS, but they have continued to be uninterested in that. They continually focus on annoying behavior that is not safety-related or even affecting anyone but my son, and chastise him when he seems unwilling (but is really unable) to change that behavior, especially since they don't understand what what motivates kids with AS and ADHD to modify their behavior is NOT the same as what works with neurotypical kids.

 

I guess if I were the SM and had to come up with a course of action, here is what I would probably do:

1. talk to the boy, find out what he thinks of his scouting experience, get his input on what he wished was different, etc, then,

2. talk to Mom, explain concerns about AS, recommend evaluation for such

3. also talk to Mom about concerns, but put it in terms of more tangible safety issues (which is sounds like there are), rather than "annoying behaviors"

4. ask if there is a male family member who understands the boy's issues and can attend troop events with her son, who he might respond better to, since he "walks all over her" (not knowing how "progressive" their version of Islam is, do you think this may be a result of their faith?)

5. do some research and find out if there are any troops in the area that have more experience/specialize in kids with behavioral disabilities; if so, suggest that this troop may be a better fit for him

6. talk to the other scouts in general terms about how learning to deal with people who's behavior we find annoying is just as important a life lesson as learning to pitch a tend, or build a fire, or be a leader. Diplomacy is a useful skill, and one that far too few adults know how to employ.

7. create a modified plan of participation in the troop for this boy (with his and Mom's input). A week at camp may just be more simulation than he can handle. Suggest that his camping be limited to weekend outings only? Give him a job at troop meetings that will keep him busy and perhaps limit his one-on-one interactions with other boys. In effect, create an IEP for his scouting experience.

 

I, too, hate to see a boy so obviously benefitting from the program turned away, but I also have a personal stake in such a situation, so to speak. I'd rather see it viewed as a learning opportunity by all involved. But in the end, we are all just volunteers, and shouldn't be forced to deal with something we really feel we can't handle.

 

Good luck.

 

ETA: I see others have suggestions while I was composing this long reply. If Mom is in denial about his condition, that makes the situation even harder. I'd probably still try to talk to her, she's not really doing her son any justice by denying that he may need more help.(This message has been edited by DanKroh)

[Eagledad]

Boy Lisa, Ive been there and done that several times and Im not sure how to respond to help you feel better. When my two sons and I look back and talk about our experiences with these scouts, my sons dont have much bad to say about their experiences with them. In fact more funny stories about them are told then anything. Im trying to say your troop will survive and everyone will grow from the experience.

 

But I do understand the whole situation and there really isnt much that can change the minds of adults. Usually there are a couple of adults who will stand with the scout and it appears you are one of them. It needs to be said that learning to work with such people is a good growing experience for scouts, and even adults. No different then learning to work with a blind, deaf or crippled scouts. We had them also.

 

The problem is a positive attitude needs to be spread to the scouts. Adults are the role models and scouts read adults very well. If the adults dont like a scout, the boys will not like the scout. If the adults take in the scout because that is the right thing to do, the scouts will accept and duplicate that as well. That doesnt mean it will be easy. I often felt for Patrol Leaders who tried hard to include these scouts into a normal patrol routine, but lack the skills required to deal with their behavoirs. The SM has to spend a lot of time with the PL to let him know that he is doing a good job no matter how frustrating it seems. The Scouts cannot feel they are alone in dealing with these scouts.

 

There has to be some kind of actions taken to help the troop. These scouts wear out adult staffs very fast, especially at summer camp. They tend to require four times the adult attention of normal scouts. You might just have to find adults who are willing to take on the responsibility of working with the scout personally.

 

Let me just say that in most cases, these scouts got better after puberty. Natures chemical change is amazing to watch.

 

One last note, we have had several difficult scouts and we developed a reputation in the district as accepting of them. Probably why we got so many in the first place. However, I did ask the parents of one scout to take him out of the troop. This scout was so severally dysfunctional that we were afraid he would get hurt. It was not unusual for that scout to just walk off, even in the middle of the night.

 

I wish all of you the best on this. I must say that Ive learned from all your post that you have a real scouting heart. I think you can start trusting that.

 

Barry

 

[OldGreyEagle]

We had a similar case about a year ago. A scout who has Aspbergers was involved in an altercation at Summer Camp and was sent home early. As the youth was scheduled to be on a High Adventure trip in a few weeks, the Scoutmaster, Committee Chair and adults going on the trip met and discussed what to do. The scout was allowed to go on the trip. His father was present, he had always planned in it. But during the trip 2 other incidents lead to the scout being asked to leave the troop. It was a tough decision. The boys father was a bright enthusiastic guy who helped plan most of the High Adventure Trip. The scout had never been really liked by the other youth, but he was tolerated but as he reached puberty, his strength increased and his mood swings increased and he tendency to violence increased.

 

The troop has a reputation for handling "problem" kids. most of the COmmitee and ASM have ADD kids and we like to think we can handle anybody, but when faced with the total uncertainty of this boy, he was asked to leave. One of the tougher things in scouting, nay in life I have had to do was look at the father in the COmmittee meeting and tell him I like your boy, but he is a danger to others and now that we know it, we cant ignore it.

 

We are volunteers we should do all we can to help the boys in our troop, but we can never go beyond our own abilities

[Stosh]

As one who has had a lot of boys coming through the troop with ADD, ADHD, and Asperger's Syndrome, education is the key. The more you know about the disability the better one is able to handle it. Unless there is an issue of safety, the situation can be salvaged.

 

If you are a SM that has only well behaved and obedient scouts, good for you, but you are a vast minority of SM's. For the most part we are all working with a variance of problems that deal with defying authority to medication resistant syndroms.

 

A SM can be a positive mentor to these boys and can work with them just like he can work with "regular" boys. Some SM's can't even work with regular boys. Those that choose to accept the challenges of boys with problems, my heart goes out to you. It is difficult.

 

LisaBob - if you have special ed professionals on your committee, have them work with the adults of the troop to give them the resources necessary to help this boy.

 

Up until there are actual threats of physical violence, these boys can be guided and helped develop through scouting. Once they become a danger then others with more skill and education than the troop have to take over.

 

A Scout is friendly.

 

Stosh

[DanKroh]

"Let me just say that in most cases, these scouts got better after puberty. Natures chemical change is amazing to watch."

 

"as he reached puberty, his strength increased and his mood swings increased and he tendency to violence increased."

 

While the first statement is often true for kids who have ADHD (many of them no longer need any sort of medication after puberty), the second is more typical for kids suffering from Autism Spectrum Disorders like Asperger's. Puberty makes things worse, not better.

[kenk]

Wow ... as soon as I read Lisa's post I immediately knew that we were probably talking about Asperger's Syndrome and not ADHD since my son has AS ... and then I read Dan's post. Dead nuts on target Dan!!!

 

AS kids have problems reading others - with social cues. They actually don't "know" how to behave or when to behave. They find life complicated, confusing, and sometimes scarey. Picture being dumped in a VERY foreign country where you just can't understand the language or customs. They can't read faces or situations. The don't tend to have much empathy - when someone falls and hurts themselves, an AS kid is likely to laugh and not catch that the person was hurt. They tend to be rude or obnoxious, or not knowing when to shut up. They tend to have problems with imagination. They tend to categorize life and can't draw outside the lines. They don't like change. They prefer sticking to the rules. They tend to be clumsy. They tend to have "meltdowns". They often have sensory overload problems (for my son it is touching wet things and loud noises). It is very common for them to have an "expertise" or an unusually developed fascination with something. They think everyone else is just as fascinated with it, so they often irritate others by neverending discussion about their interest.

 

It is not uncommon for AS kids to use so much energy trying to read and understand their surroundings that they wear out over time. An AS kid might do fine during a two-day campout, but as Dan said, after ten days they may simply be over stimulated. My son clearly needs to spend down time at home to get away from things.

 

Everyone associated - the mom, the Scouts, the Scouters - need to be educated on AS. They have to understand that AS kids don't want to be mean or unliked. They just don't know how to behave "right". They essentially speak a different emotional language than the other people.

 

This is a tough tough issue. Scouting can be one of the best learning experiences an AS kid can have. It is one of the few places where AS kids can be exposed to social situations with the relatively close guidance of mature leaders (both older Scouts and adults). So it is really important for the AS boy to be able to stay in Scouting.

 

On the other hand, it can be really hard on boys (and leaders) who don't understand AS and/or don't understand how to respond to the "issues".

 

In my son's troop we have two boys with AS. My son is not very irritable or physical (luckily, since as I write this he is a 6' tall 12-year old), but the other boy tends to be a bit more irritable and physical. Not all AS kids are the same.

 

For my son I made sure that all the boys and leaders knew he has this thing called AS. I try to keep it in the open and "talkable". I go on most outings with him to buffer situations while still giving him the space to make mistakes, anger people, and such, but the I'll sometimes have some "private" (not really alone) talks with those boys who are frustrated with him to remind them of why my son is acting as he does.

 

I've often said that life would be easier for my son (with AS) if he'd have been blind or born with some more noticable disability. At least people would know why he's the "way he is". With AS they just think he's stupid or a jerk or irritating. Most of it goes over my son's head (he doesn't read this but it is VERY hard for a dad to see and hear this). As I said, I try to limit my involvement as much as possible though.

 

BTW, last spring we tried giving my son Ridalin for the first time. After 3-4 years of teachers begging us to put him on medication we finally caved in. It did absolutely nothing. At the time we didn't tell anyone at the school. After a few weeks - near the end of the school year - we asked his teachers how he was doing lately. They said he'd been having MORE problems focusing during those last few weeks.

 

The point is that an AS kid CAN control themself, but they either don't don't know to control themself, but more likely they either don't know when to control themself, or they choose not to control themself because they don't think they really need to -- if that makes sense.

 

Dan - have you ever put your son in Marshal Arts classes - such as Tai Kwan Do? My son has been taking classes for something like four years now and it is absolutely the best thing we've done for him. It has taught him an amazing amount of self-control - both mind and body - and self-confidence. I've also read that AS kids like Marshal Arts since it is regimented and predictable - AS kids don't tend to like change.

 

The scout's mom needs to get her son diagnosed, accept his condition, and take an active involvement in his Scouting experience - she can't put all this on other parents. She should really consider enrolling him in marshal arts.

 

 

[Gunny2862]

As the parent of an ADD, formerly ADHD and ADD, child (admitting my biases) I still say there is a point where it is more than you may be expected to handle. So I ask the following questions?

Do you have adequate parental support for your outings/ meetings to provide one additional pair of eyes for this child at all times?

 

Do the rest of the boys actively dislike him or is it simple annoyance?

 

Is he so distracting, and getting a secondary gain reinforcement from the attention even negative attention, that you cannot hold normal troop function with him in the mix.

 

Is he an inherent safety danger to himself? And then to others? Because of his inattention.

We know that all boys have moments when they "don't think" part of the issue if he is truly ADD is that he may be so busy thinking about so many different things that he cannot focus on any one activity.

Can his be controlled by meds? If so insist that he be medicated and that permission to medicate and an adequate supply be provided be given for any outing where he is away from MOM longer than a dose lasts! If his symptoms are not ameliorated to a manageable level by medication then you may have no choice to end his association with your troop.

 

And I'll broach it, it's not a Muslim issue, it could be a Middle Eastern cultural thing where the "Little Man" rules the house, especially in the abcense (SP?) of a male role model in his house. You see it sometimes in our culture but M.E culture is more predisposed to this attitude. Association with strong Scouting males who refuse to put up with any bad attitude, or improper actions MAY help him as much as the medication.

 

In my son's case he has gotten better over time, pays attention(at the normal rate for his age anyway), is well behaved(better than most of his peers). He is currently at off medication and doing well.

 

Frankly I thought the whole ADD/ADHD thing was a crock and a cover for bad parenting before I had one. I now think that bad parenting exacerbates it but there is no excuse for the children not TRYING to follow the rules or instructions given if the diagnosis is not confounded with something else(especially Autisim or some variant of Aspergers). You may have to keep an ADD/ADHD child on task but a well-behaved one is trying but unable to stay on the same set of instructions - they "see" too many distractions. Bad attitudes and actions on the other hand(not thoughtless ones) are not, in my experience, part of the disease and for my son not tolerated.

 

Lisa, if there are questions you would like to ask off-line, PM me. I probably won't be back on-line until Tuesday AM after I leave here around 3:00.

[Eagledad]

>>While the first statement is often true for kids who have ADHD (many of them no longer need any sort of medication after puberty), the second is more typical for kids suffering from Autism Spectrum Disorders like Asperger's. Puberty makes things worse, not better.

[OneHour]

It is scout like he who needs scouting the most! It will require a lot of TLC ... Tender, Love, and Coaching! ... and a boatload of patience would be needed! Hmmm ... been there, done that, and still doing it! It's going to be a project!

 

Good luck,

 

1Hour

[Beavah]

Yah, my immediate reaction was da same as DanKroh's too. This sounds like Asperger's. In which case ADHD may be a misdiagnosis and the ADHD meds may be a problem. Of course this might also be real parenting problems and hangover from loss of dad, coupled with cultural factors.

 

In troops, I've found AS kids benefit a lot from a consistent, firm adult dealin' with them, and one or two consistent, firm PL-type scouts. Consistency, firmness, and an understandin' of the syndrome are really important. In particular, every boy in the troop needs to be taught about AS, and understand the "social cues" issues. If the boys understand, and are taught some simple techniques, it sure helps a lot.

 

In cases with poor parenting, again the kid will benefit a lot from a consistent, firm adult and highly structured environment. Scoutin' probably doesn't meet the "highly structured" criterion, so it might not be the best. But you might solve the consistent, firm adult problem by hooking up with Big Brothers. Gettin' the lad a semi-permanent Big Brother adult male role model would give him support both in Scouting and at home.

 

All that bein' said, I think a troop needs to be honest about the skill and capacity of its adult and youth leaders. If you've got the skill and talent to invest in a kid like this, that's super. It will take a lot, and you'll make progress, but it's always goin' to be work. Good work, but definitely work.

 

If you don't have the capacity and skill to deal with this, you're not helpin' the kid. Better that he find an activity with paid professional staff that can support him safely. More important, you will have incidents and injuries. People can't operate above their capacity without losin' control of things and makin' mistakes. Just the way it is. We wouldn't take kids snow camping unless we had the skills and capacity to handle it, eh? In fact, we'd be pretty darn critical of a troop that did. Same thing here.

 

Beavah