What Does Boy Run / Boy Led REALLY Mean?

[Beavah]

The Totin'''' Chip Award patch is in the new Insignia Guide, described as temporary insignia.

 

:)

 

Yah, they''re so funny, eh? I don''t think supply and program folks ever really talk to each other.

 

Supply Division indicates that the Totin'' Chip patch is "not for uniform wear." I think dat''s supposed to be the right answer.

 

But if it fits on da bottom of the right pocket (sorta looks like it might), then I''d go for that as BA suggests. Seems like it would be a fun, fairly prominent place for the kids to put it and feel proud. Unless of course you''re a strict uniformin'' type . Then yeh gotta buy the lads a patch jacket or patch blanket early!

 

Beavah

 

[jambo]

Beaveh and Eagle dad, thanks for your comments. I think ''beaveh'' has been in the trenches. I went to most of the trainings courses and absorbed the philosophy of boy run. I could not understand why it would not work and I had only 18 boys in the unit. That''s when I came to awakening that there is no leadership, no motivation, no program, no activities and no enthusiasm. I had to modify the entire structure, not what that 14 year old PLC wanted, but what was exciting for the boy to be in Scouting. The Troop was run by JASM,

ASM''s and my self. We had brain storming sessions of what our kids wanted, and we executed it. Our membership grew form 20 to 40, and next year to 60. We had plenty of Eagle Scouts, and we got a Congressional mention. My thinking, on this is " It is better to have a boy stay longer in our movement, then see him leave in one year " This is not what ''boy run philosophy promotes. My suggestion, visit some large successful troops, and see that the so called ''guidance'', is really adult run. '' Scouting forever '' jambo

 

 

[local1400]

While we''re on the subject, it appears that I am the only adult in my unit that is not Woodbadge trained, or signed up to be. I often wonder, why, in a boy-led organization, do adult leaders need to be trained to be great leaders? I feel the training emphasis should be focused on the BOYS (JLT/NYLT????). Why the push for WB? Isn''t it enough for me to take all my Scouting experience and just supervise and let the PLC do what the PLC is supposed to do?

[Eagledad]

Hi All, I hope your fall days are as beautiful as Oklahoma''s right now.

 

Jambo first; I''m having a hard time understanding your post. Are you saying boy run promotes boys only stay in one year, or that they stay in longer?

 

Doesn''t matter really I guess. Our Troop in seven years went from 14 scouts to 95 scouts. 40 of those scouts were 14 and older. We average 1 Eagle every two months and their average was 16. The average of our SPL was 16 and typically two of the top three youth leaders in our local OA came from our troop. If you asked any of the adults in our District and the ones that knew us in council, they would tell you that we clearly were a very boy run programs.

 

I could go on and on and brag some more, but I just don''t like it. So getting to the point, I just don''t think your adults knew how to build a boy run program like we had. That is not a bad thing, it is just understanding that each adult is different.

 

I respond on this forum because our troop had a lot of experience with different styles of programs. We learned what works and what doesn''t work. Not only that, I was involved with a lot of other programs as well while on the District and council. Enough experience that I can to some degree predict the struggles and successes of programs. Not because I''m gifted, but because in large part, human behavior is constant.

 

Given all that, I try to pass along those things I''ve learned trying to help others succeed where I failed and learned the hard way.

 

However, there is one element of scouting that is difficult to predict and makes scouting different in each troop, The Adults. We don''t like to mention him much because he does brings up so much emotion, but one place that Bob White and I did agree was that scouts don''t make good or bad programs, the adults do. So when you talk about changing the program away from boy run for a more successful program, what you are really saying is you didn''t have the skills or vision for boy run, so you developed a program that fit your skills better.

 

Is that bad. No it is not. I have a boy run vision, that is what I do. I could no more stand in an adult run troop for 20 minutes then milk snakes for a hobby. But that is me. When I retired as SM, we had the second largest troop in the District. The first largest was 150 strong and it was pure adult run. When parents visited our two troops, they had a clear understanding of the differences between the two programs just simply watching one meeting. I never had anything bad to say about that program because they typically kept scouts until they were 14. As you said, that is far better then keeping them one year.

 

May I suggest that there just isn''t one program in the BSA. If it works and it is a safe place for our sons, isn''t that a successful program? That doesn''t mean when we discuss styles of programs on this forum I won''t relate my understanding of successful approaches and not so successful because I base that logic from insight and experience. I just want to offer readers here a choice. I think this is important so that all of us don''t start getting in the habit of thinking our way is the only way. It is just one more way.

 

LOCAL1400: My personal opinion is Wood Badge is fantastic at teaching how to set visions and build teams to work toward those visions. If you followed the Wood Badge model, you will have a successful program because it teaches adults how to work together in the worst of times and best of times. My experience of working with failing programs is that 90% of them had no vision and didn''t work as a team. In fact the very first question I asked of units was what is your vision for your scouts? I was doing that before Wood Badge started teaching it. Wood Badge is very good at that and would be the reason I think you should take the course. As for working with the boys, well I don''t think WB teaches that part as well. But, I believe that you get most of that by on the job experience anyways.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

 

[Eamonn]

One of the big problems I''m having with the Ship is getting them to understand that it is their program.

OK, I tell them that it''s their Ship.

Nearly all the boys who have been Boy Scouts have never had the opportunity to really voice their opinion, let alone have someone listen and allow them to plan and follow through.

I must be a little slow!!

It took me a very long time to understand what a PLC is really all about and how it should work.

For a while I was happy to use the PLC like a messenger service.

Sure we had meetings but they sat down and heard from me what we were going to do and their job was to relay the information.

This of course was not right!!

Then I tried being the Coach.

This was needed for a while, but I wasn''t ever ready to let them make their own game plan.

As I have posted before I have a giant ego!!

I was so happy when "My" Scouts had more badges than the Scouts from other Troops.

I was so happy when "My" Troop won most of the District Competitions.

I really wasn''t serving the Troop as much as using it to feed my ego.

If someone is really bored they can go back and count the number of times I have posted "Train Them, Trust Them And Let Them Lead."

There are other threads running at this time asking about the role of the Scoutmaster?

His main job is to train the members of the PLC. (We train leaders in leadership at WB, in order that they understand what leadership is and how it works)

Youth led is ongoing and ever changing. No two Scouts are the same and each Scout brings new ideas and new skills to the unit along with maybe some not so good baggage!!

I''m happy to stand back and let the Ship''s Quarterdeck plan just about anything that they want to do.

They know that they have my support.

They also know that there are some things that I''m happy for them to do, but they might need to find another adult to go with them.

Over the years I have kinda got used to seeing things maybe not working out as they should.

I''m OK with that as long as we learn something from it.

When something isn''t going right, I''m happy to sit down with whoever is in charge and help them look at their options. I see this as part of "Train Them"

When we are done I''m big on reflections, we use the reflection process at the end of end QD meeting.

I''m painfully aware that I have a big mouth!!

While "Feedback is a gift" At times I forget about the "Back" bit and want to do the feeding!!

I find doodling helps me keep quite!!

Not to change the subject. - But....

I find it''s very strange the number of Scouter''s who seem to think that I''m some kind of anti-establishment rebel for allowing the Scouts to make real plans, handle real responsibilities.

Needless to say that giant ego kicks in and I think I''m right and they are wrong.

This youth led thing can take a long time to develop and just when you think you have it down pat! It''s time to start over and look at who you are working for and the bad habits that you have developed and hadn''t noticed.

One more thing!

I do think it''s very important that the Scouts know who the leader of the adults is. There can only be one leader.

Any more than one clouds and confuses everyone.

Eamonn.

[Eagledad]

>>I do think it''''s very important that the Scouts know who the leader of the adults is. There can only be one leader.

Any more than one clouds and confuses everyone.

Eamonn.

[Eamonn]

Barry,

Maybe the real answer to this question is found in the Scout Law?

If we really do mean that A Scout is ...trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly,courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful,

thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

We the adults need to offer the Scout every opportunity to live up to it.

Will he get it right all the time?

Of course not!!

Back in May of this year I spent a month at the PA Department of Corrections Training Academy.

The instructors there spend a lot of time talking about the:

Care, Custody and Control of inmates.

Sadly it seems some leaders seem to work along very much the same lines.

Of course one of the things a convicted criminal has lost is trust.

While of course we care about and for the Scouts in our charge and while custody is open to interpretation, it does seem that some adults have a need to be in control at all times.

The highlight of my day at times is when a Scout turns around to me and says "It''s OK Skip, we can do this we don''t need you!!

The highpoint in his or her day is when I say "That''s great. Call me if you need me."

Scouting for me is all about relationships.

I like to think the Scouts know that I really do care for them. I really do take my responsibility for their well being and safety to heart. This runs through just about everything we do. A Scout who comes on top without a PFD, knows he should have one on.

He knows because he or she was taught that we always wear them and is given reasons why. Someone will normally issue a kindly reminder. In fact I''ll wait for someone other than me to issue it!! The situation is a quick fix and is not a hanging offense!! Sure at times a Scout will complain that the water isn''t very deep and he feels that the PFD is not needed, but so far no one has ever decided not to wear one. Of course the adults set a good example by always wearing one.

There have been times when things have really not gone as they were supposed too. This has at times led to a lot of frustration and even name calling. It was all to easy to pass the buck and blame someone. Right now we have a good QD (PLC) They are starting to see and understand that while some Scouts can take on an assignment, run with it and deliver the goods, others need to reminded, prompted and at times given a friendly push.

My part in this is easy!! I ask the Boatswain how is such and such coming along ? If he tells me "Great" Thats fine. If he seems unsure or tells me that it''s not! I ask him what is he doing about it? If he is not sure what to do, I''ll offer my two cents. There are times when he will ask me to jump in. While because he has asked, there is no way I''m going to leave him hanging out there to dry, I do offer to work with him and alongside him, hopefully passing on and training him in what has to be or what should be done.

I wish I could say that this always works! It doesn''t.

The Scouts know I''m not perfect, they are very forgiving and most times we end up seeing the funny side of it, while maybe learning enough to ensure we get it right next time.

In a lot of ways being the Skipper of a Sea Scout Ship is very much like being a District Chairman.

Both the Ship and the District set their own goals.

In the Ship we have youth leaders who take on assignments that will help the Ship reach these goals. In the District adults from different committees do much the same thing.

My role in both positions was/is seeing how things are coming along and supporting the people who are doing the work.

It seems that we spend a lot of time talking about Training.

While of course formal training''s are good and worth while, but most of training is very informal on the job type training. Be it training the new district marketing person about the best time to call the local newspaper or training a Crew Leader about cleaning up as you go when cooking a meal.

The really hard part is not getting the work done, the hard part is having them come up with goals (A vision??) that they will buy into and be willing to work toward.

Eamonn.

 

[allangr1024]

Eagledad, you are right, it is gorgeous in Oklahoma right now. You describe what our town looks like; you might be my neighbor.

 

I have a question. What is the optimal period of service for the PLC. I am a new Scoutmaster. I came in in March to a troop that has decreased from 50 boys to 15. The last SM got promoted and could not continue his role. We now have two patrols, newly reorganized. We held elections in April and got a very good SPL, ASLP, a PL for one pratrol that showed up to everything, and one who was there half the time. Our troop tradition is to have elections and new leaders every 6 months. So we are coming up to then end of our PLC''s terms.

 

In the past I dont think we did Boy Led very well. We had the officers, but did not put much decision making in their hands. I held the first campout planning session in which the boys selected the activities and camping locations themselves. (I made a list of twenty locations and twenty activities, and let them mix and match, or let them add to the list of alternatives) We came up with our camping schedule for the year. I will allow the PLC to alter if a better opertunity comes along (Camporee, Boundary Waters trip, etc.) I think that is a good first step.

 

Now, it is time to start over with new leaders. We will pick them and let them take office at the end of the month. I fear we will lose the experience of the current group at a critical time. So, my question is: How long should the term of office for SPL, ASPL, and PL be?

 

BTW, I do not feel I can abandon them to thier own desires at the expense of the program. I will not have them doing beanie wienie meals on campouts just because it is easy. I insisted that one campout on the schedule be a recruiting campout reaching out to Weblos and others. So they picked our anual district Webelos Woods event. I have yet to start bringing up matters of troop practice, although some of those decisions would probably be good for them to tackle.

 

Let me know what you think. I think the whole of us is smarter than any one of us.

Thanks.

 

 

[Eagledad]

Hi Allangr

 

Im in the beautiful town of Edmond.

 

I think you are going to have to feel your way through this question. Probably 95% of troops do six months as does mine. However, the best run boy run programs I have ever witnessed do 1 year terms. Saying that, some do a 1 year SPL while the other offices are six months and the ASPL is the elected knowing he will step into the SPL job in six months . The advantage of 1 year is that it really takes about 6 months to learn a job well, so the other six months give the scout a chance to really lead and make a difference. ! year coud be a long time with bad leadership, but is unusual because scouts in those troops know well befor what the job requires. Generally those troops have very good leadership and the SPL is at least 16.

 

I tried to do 1 year elections, but we just had too many scouts who wanted to serve offices and they felt 1 year was to long to wait. Our SPLs work really really hard and they would tell me they are ready for a break after six months. But in every case, I have a hard time getting them to step back from the new SPL for the next six months. I think they would enjoy a 1 year stint.

 

Now, I like to suggest troops with only scouts 12 years old and under consider three or four month elections because boys that young burn out really fast and leadership at that age isnt a lot of fun for them. In a true boy run program, they need a break pretty fast.

 

What ever you choose, you need to stick with it for a while to develop traditions and predictable program and training dates. Also, do not ignore when the new scouts come in. Do you want new scouts electing an SPL when they dont know anybody? You may want to give the SPL and SM time to fine TGs before the new scouts show up.

 

There are lots of things to consider, things you may not have experienced yet.

 

Barry

 

[OldGrayOwl]

What a long thread.

I have a question that I have been thinking about:

 

Does your SPL attend your Troop Committee meetings?

 

 

[jambo]

Barry: I was very much impresseded that you had 150 boys in your unit. When I had 90 boys in my unit the council told me to break it up, and form another unit. I don''t know how you got away ? The type of unit you had and maybe the type of the unit is only 10% of the National Statistics, 80% of the troops,( which boy run philosophy ) in the country , are 15-25 active scouts.( not what the rosters show ) When will the National wake up and repamp this failure program. jambo

[Eagledad]

>>Barry: I was very much impresseded that you had 150 boys in your unit.

[jambo]

Barry, I have read your articles on this forum, and I see you were in the trenches as I have, trying to run a successful scouting program. I am not going to beat this " boy run'' / adult run/guided " program. to its demise . But I will tell you my experience just lately, attended a district fall camporee.

.....

During the camp assembly, there were 12 units of Scouts. Two units had 20+ scouts, with class "A" uniforms, and there leaders looked very well decorated and seemed very well organized. The rest of the units was a disgrace to the scouting movement. We had one obese lady ASM, in charge of six boys, with just about no one wearing a uniform. The rest of the overweight leaders, wore a Scout shirt with assorted colored pants ( red, yellow,blue ), the scouts looked about the same. The only ones that had a patrol flag was the ones with class" A " uniforms. But, generally speaking they all had fun. But, one can see which were adult run/guided, or the so called " boy run "

I feel sorry for the future of Scouting. Jambo

 

 

[eolesen]

I find the characterization of "overweight adult leaders" a little on the negative side.

 

I''ve seen my underweight un-uniformed/un-informed leaders, and overweight uniformed/informed leaders...

 

Trust me... weight doesn''t have any bearing on whether or not a troop is boy-run or can pass a uniform inspection....