What Does Boy Run / Boy Led REALLY Mean?

[Eagledad]

Gwd-scouter is right. It saves the adults from being the bad guys and know it alls. The first time I gave it to our PLC was when they planned a weekend using Jet-skis.

 

That was about the time I started showing scouts the Scoutmaster and Committee Handbooks so that they could see why we did anything the way we did. I gave every new PLC a copy of the Aims and Methods so that they saw why a troop functions the way it does and where the scouts could add their own dreams, visions and ideas to make it more fun. In fact, I challenged each PLC that if I couldn't justify any troop activity did toward the three Aims, they could take it out of the program. At first the uniforms took a lot of shot but the Boy Scout Handbook and ability to explain its value save me there.

 

Giving the PLC that challenge forced me to become more accountible for knowing, or learning how every piece of the program works. I guess you could say it help the scouts understand that there was method behind the madness. Or a game with a purpose I guess.

 

I've said it here before, adults could simplify their lives if they would just use the SPL and PL handbooks along side the scouts because the program is laid out pretty well in those two simple easy to read books. Then there would be no mystery about the program for the scouts or adults. Everyone works together with a common guide book and a common goal.

 

Great discussion.

 

Barry

[gwd-scouter]

Had our annual planning campout this past weekend. Chaotic as always, but eventually the guys made their plans for the year. Before they began, I introduced them to the G2SS and they passed it around and made comments "Oh, here's where it says we can't do (fill in the blank)." Yes, they FIRST looked up those things they've been told they couldn't do.

 

They have another spelunking trip on the calendar and someone looked that up in the guide to make sure they were following the rules. White water rafting prompted the guys to ask the adults some questions about our qualifications. They decided, yep we can do that. Further reading in the guide - ah, too bad, can't go jet skiing the next time they camp at the lake.

 

They had interesting discussions about the use of words like 'should' and 'must'. (reminded me of some of the threads on this forum).

 

They are growing up and taking charge. Still miles to go yet, but we're getting there. Thanks Barry for the suggestion.

 

 

 

 

[jambo]

I have been reading all of your comments...I agree with some of theories how to run the Boy Scout Troops. With out further 'ado', let me tell you of an interview I had with a 16 year old boy ( who I am going to call John "

Have you been in Scouting ? yes !.... I have been a weblow, Patrol Leader, First Class.....Are you going for your Eagle rank ? No ,... I quite the Troop at 14 ....oh, why ? I did not like it. The cubing was more active and run by the adults who knew what heck they were doing. Once I got into the troop, the adults sat around and told us continuously, that it is a boy run unit. We had a lot of debates at the PLC, but very few decisions made. When we went on the hikes, the boys never listened to a kid who himself did not know anything of scouting. The adult leader would say " do what you want ", and he would leave and have a great meal with the other adults cooked over propane stoves, while most the kids burned there food over open fires.

 

John continued : I now belong to my churches youth group...( 14 -17 boys and girls )..we have a lots of fun...no more uniforms, no more stupid kids bossing us around,,no more ranks....we have parties and socials. We are being led by youth counselors. He then showed me some photos of the activities he went on one picture was where he was cannoening on a lake,horseback riding, cooking with a girl friend over a fire, at church services, hiking with a pack on a trail , and etc.

 

Now tell me ! Boy run units ...is that the way to go ? ...jambo

 

 

 

info@scouter.com wrote:

 

 

[Mr.Mal]

Sounds like "John" is the type of kid that wants to have stuff done for him so he can go play, without learning the leadership skills that so many of our young people are lacking.

Could be that the troop that he was associtated with need to have a wake-up call on how to really run the troop. It is not "adults hands off all the time", but working together to have them learn. (teach first, then demonstrate, then assist, then watch).

 

My troop is boy-led and is doing great. The Scouts tell me in their SM conference's that that is what they like over cubs, is the fact that they do the program, and when they need guidence, they come to the SM.

[Eagledad]

>>Now tell me ! Boy run units ...is that the way to go ? ...jambo

[Beavah]

Yah, jambo, I hear yeh. I too have seen the "hands off" scouters who let the kids fail without ever tryin' to teach 'em how to succeed. They make a big deal about sittin' in the adult patrol and being "boy led", forgettin' the second half "adult guided".

 

Like I said, there are two errors to avoid:

 

1) Believing the kids can't do it, and doing it for them.

 

2) Not doing a good job teachin' and helpin' the kids grow, and instead letting 'em flounder.

 

You object to #2, and I agree with you. But then you seem to embrace #1, which is just another version of failure, eh? Sure, kids have lots of "field trips" and activities that way. It's great fun to have others do all the work. It looks glitzy. But the kids don't learn a darn thing that way - they never get to make it "theirs", they never experience struggle and success, they don't really grow.

 

Just like #2, I think it's a lazy way out for the adults. "Let's just do it ourselves" rather than "let's do the hard work to figure out what it takes so that the kids can do it for themselves."

 

Great scouters aren't lazy. They work really hard. But they put their work into kids, not into activities.

 

Beavah

 

[EagleInKY]

Barry, You took the words almost directly out of my mouth. We are involved in both scouts and church youth group. Our church youth group is very active and there are often schedule conflicts. I let my son choose which wins, and I would guess scouts win 3 out of 4 times.

 

He loves scouts and he loves his youth group. What he loves about his youth group is the fun, fellowship, spiritual "lift" and the fact that he doesn't have to do much other than show up. What he loves about scouts is the fun, fellowship, emotional "lift" and the sense of accomplishment he gets from planning and carrying out the program.

 

Our youth minister is trying to develop some of the kids into being leaders. My son is one of the ones he has keyed in on. (Actually, if you look at it, most of the youth he's depending on are also scouts). He's looking to them to lead devotionals, encourage the less involved, set a good example, etc. I think it's great that he's doing this, and it will add to the overall experience. But it's nothing compared to the leadership experience that these guys get in scouting.

 

I can only assume jambo's experience is with one of those sad troops that do the same thing week in and week out. Troop meetings are nothing more than capture the flag and meal planning for the next campout. MB classes are probably organized and add some structure from time to time. Each year the campout plan pretty much mirrors the previous year.... maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I'm sensing.

 

Our troop has made the slow journey toward boy-leadership and we're definitely closer to it now than we've ever been. I don't think you ever "arrive", because as soon as you do, you get a new SPL or a new PLC and you have to teach them all over again. But even with boy leadership, we're doing lots of fun things. We just got back from climbing, rappelling and hiking this weekend. A few weeks earlier we had a campout and ran an orienteering course. This year we've sailed at Seabase and spent a weekend on a carrier. We've camped in the snow, sun and rain. We've camped in this state and a neighboring state. We've gone back to some places we've camped before, and gone to some ones we've never seen. We did our first bike trek. In a few weeks we'll have our annual lock-in at the local indoor soccer arena. Soccer, flag football and dodgeball all night long, what more could a boy ask for? Who's idea was it to do it first? You got it, the PLC.

 

Anyway, I could go on and on. Boy-run is not the problem, boy-run is the solution, assuming the adults know (1) how to live with it and learn from it and (2) are willing to work with the boys to develop the program.

 

Barry, I know you know this because you and I both "love this scouting stuff".

[PeteM]

WOW!

Lot's of excellent advise and info.

 

(To paraphrase a member of this board:

 

I love this Scouter website stuff)

[BrentAllen]

Eagledad writes: "

BUT, for all you There is only one uniform folks out there, our PLC wanted to use olive drab BDUs for a lot of good reasons that arent important here. The PLC sent their request and reasons to Council to get permission to wear BDUs as official uniform. And they got it. So our scouts can wear OD BDU pants if they choose."

 

That''s nice, but unfortunately your local council doesn''t have the authority to give such permission. As you can read in the Insignia Guide, only the National Executive Board of the BSA, through it''s Program Group Committee, can issue changes.

 

Clause 4. Prohibition of Alteration or Imitation

a) No alteration of, or additions to, the official uniforms, as described in the official publications, or the rules and regulations covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting official or LOCAL COUNCIL OR ANY LOCAL EXECUTIVE BOARD or committee, except the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America after consideration by the Program Group Committee. (emphasis added)

 

Do you ever have Annual Inspections as recommended? With an outside inspection group, usually headed up by a UC? Or does that violate your boy-run program?

 

The following is not addressed to Eagledad, because it sounds like his Troop is pretty good on the uniforming.

I''m all for boy run. I just get tired of seeing so many Troops who ignore the uniform requirements and then use the excuses of either the uniform costs too much or we''ll lose boys if we make them wear the uniform or the boys decided to wear something else. I''ve seen it done correctly too many times to believe those lame excuses. Those poorly uniformed troops operate on policy based on fear - fear they are going to lose boys, fear they are going to upset someone, fear of who knows what. I thought a Scout was brave. As I''ve said before, it all comes down to a lack of leadership. Do you want them to look like Scouts, or like the Bad News Bears Doing Scouts? Boy run is great, but if the boys in our Troop wanted to change the uniform, I would ask them to show me where the change is authorized. I wouldn''t let them just vote on it and change it, as others have suggested.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

[Beavah]

Do you want them to look like Scouts, or like the Bad News Bears Doing Scouts?

 

If I remember the old movie right, da Bad News Bears were a little league team of misfits that couldn''t afford uniforms, but they dreamed big and worked hard and won the championship based on skill, teamwork, good humor, and fun. First movie of a long series of similar shows (like Mighty Ducks, etc.) where the team with heart and spirit is pitted against the well-uniformed, well-funded, and aggressively adult-led league champions.

 

Given that choice, I guess I vote for da Bears, eh?

 

Of course, I think da Bad News Bears even snuck a girl onto the team

 

 

[Mr.Mal]

How about the Scout that thinks it''s "cool" to wear his MB sash folded over his belt instead of wearing it over his shoulder?

[Beavah]

How about the Scout that thinks it''''s "cool" to wear his MB sash folded over his belt instead of wearing it over his shoulder?

 

Since this thread is about being boy led, seems like it''s time for da classic answer:

 

What does his Patrol Leader say?

 

How about his SPL? His PLC?

 

Uniform method is supposed to work in concert with Youth Leadership and Patrol methods (and Outdoor Method, which is another story ).

 

FWIW, that badge-sash-on-belt thing has been an unofficial practice across the country for almost 30 years. Yeh can even find BSA catalogs and publications which show it. (Of course yeh can find BSA publications that show every kind of uniform permutation contrary to the Insignia Guide ). To my mind, it doesn''t really look bad, and if the kids are doing something active it''s a darn sight safer than having that floppy, easy-to-snag sash around their neck, eh? I imagine the lad saw some camp staffers wearin'' their sash like that for that reason.

 

Beavah

 

[BrentAllen]

Bad News Bears - let''s see - players smoking, cussing, fighting, displaying bad sportsmanship. Coach is an alcoholic. I guess with a Troop like that, uniforming would take back burner.

 

As for the Merit Badge Sash, if the Scout were in my unit, I would have the SPL point out in the Insignia Guide where it states:

"A merit badge sash is NEVER worn on the belt." (emphasis NOT added)

Found in the front, under Excess Insignia.

Instead of perpetuating bad uniforming, I would try to have it corrected. No need to let the Scout improperly influence hundreds of other Scouts who might see him and don''t know any better (and who''s adults wouldn''t take the time to try to correct and lead them).

[Mr.Mal]

OK, Question along similar lines...How about the "good old Totin Chip" badge?

The Scouts that earn it are proud of it, and it sorta looks like it goes on the right pocket flap, but not quite. It is too narrow and too tall.

Where should it go then?

 

The Uniform guide does NOT say where it should go.

[BrentAllen]

The Totin'' Chip Award patch is in the new Insignia Guide, described as temporary insignia.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)