When can a Scout request a SM conference?

[fgoodwin]

I don't have my SM HB handy, but I thought a Scout could request a SM conference (SMC) at any time. Assuming the SM and the Scout can come to a reasonable accomodation, I don't see a problem with that.

 

But in our troop, SMCs for advancement purposes can be scheduled ONLY during a monthly campout. The Scout must appear in full class A uniform from head to toe, including MB sash, or the SM can (according to our troop's policy) refuse the Scout's request for an SMC.

 

I think limiting advancement SMCs to campouts only is a not-so-subtle form of adding to the requirements -- nowhere do I read that such SMCs must necessarily be limited to a campout.

 

In fact, if a Scout is otherwise qualified to advance, but misses a campout, is it appropriate to withold the SMC for another month (or more) until the Scout makes it to another campout?

 

How do your troops handle this?

 

If an otherwise qualified Scout is denied an advancement SMC, and advancement is thus withheld, what would your Council or National say if that decision were appealed?

[John-in-KC]

Fred,

 

I've known you five years now, since Philont 03. You have a good head on your shoulders.

 

Your antennae are indeed twitching as they should be.

 

If the Scout, or Mom and Dad, complained to the District, you'd find the boys advancement being withdrawn from the unit by our District Advancement Chairman.

 

It's a nice theory, but it doesn't pass the common sense or smell tests. What happens if the SM is ill or is working for a campout?

 

YIS

[Lisabob]

I don't know what our council would say because I don't know of any troops in our area who would try to do this. This does not seem quite "right." Is there a reason given for doing things this way?

[acco40]

I won't try to guess what my Council or the National Council would say but let me add my two cents worth as a Scoutmaster.

 

I'm constantly asked to give SM conferences during troop meeting nights, either before, after or during. I usually refuse because I'm tied up and busy with the pre-meeting, meeting and post-meeting. That's about 2 hours for me and if I try to fit in a SM conference before or after that time I'm usually worn out.

 

I tell the boys my preference is to do SM conferences at troop outings. I don't require field uniforms during outings for the SM conference. This way they are not rushed. I work long hours, usually 10 hours or more per day and many times my weekends are full too. But if I am available, I will do SM conferences during the week and weekend.

 

This week, a boy asked for a conference on the troop meeting night (Monday). I was bushed after 10 hours of work and 2 hours of meeting and I said how about Tuesday evening. He said no, he had to prepare for his vacation - he was leaving on Wednesday and would be gone for three weeks. Well, I'll see you in three and a half weeks I said. He was disappointed but understood.

 

The youth need to learn to plan ahead and that we don't always need to cater to their schedule. I know that sounds mean but it is reality and a good learning experience for them.

 

P.S. Another reason I don't like to use troop meeting nights is the parents. After the meeting is over the parent wants to go home pronto. If I agree to a SM conference, which could take anywhere from 10 minutes (Tenderfoot) to a half hour (Life), the parent usually shows impatience and I just don't need to deal with that. Also, with over 40 boys in the troop, what do I do when three boys want a SM conference (or six or seven when COH's approach!) on the same night. The parents go crazy if I don't do their special Johnny first because they have other important things on their plate that evening!(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Oak Tree]

Fred,

 

At initial read, I think your position may be technically correct. If the Scoutmaster is available at other times, but refuses to do a conference because it's not on an outing, he might find himself being counseled by council.

 

But on further reflection, I think I fall into acco's camp. If the boy asks for a conference, and the Scoutmaster gives him various availability dates, what's to appeal? The Scoutmaster hasn't denied the conference...he's just offered a date to schedule it. I don't think there is any policy on how often a Scoutmaster must offer conferences. Like acco, I find that outings are a great time to do conferences. There's lots of time, and we're there anyway.

 

And is this really something you want to make a big deal over? I hate to see the adults set up warring camps on issues like this. Is there some particular reason this is a problem for one of the boys? Has he talked to the Scoutmaster about it? If this is a big problem for a boy, and the Scoutmaster won't make an exception, then I might have an issue, but for ordinary run-of-the-mill situations, I think I'd go with the flow on this one.

 

Heck, my Troop Committee Guidebook says that the advancement coordinator is supposed to "Arrange quarterly troop boards of review". If the BSA is willing to let BoRs be done quarterly, then I don't think there could be too much objection to doing Scoutmaster conferences monthly.

 

In our troop, I do offer Scoutmaster conferences during troop meetings (the SPL is running the meeting, so I don't have too much to do a lot of the time, and I have other adults helping supervise as well). And I'll arrange them at other times as well. But how far does that obligation extend?

[OldGrayOwl]

The way I do it in my troop is that when a Scout requests a SM, I check and see if I'm busy and do it when I can...after all, the reason that I'm there is for the Scouts. We used to schedule them, or have them the 3rd meeting of the month, but the amount of advancement that we were getting was minimal. If I couldn't make it on the 3rd meeting night, or if the Scout couldn't for whatever reason, then he would be delayed again.

 

The parents understand, since they realize that I am staying there for THEIR son, giving up more of my time for THEIR son. I had to explain that only once to a parent, then they understood.

[Beavah]

Yah, this seems like another teapot temptest, eh?

 

Don't know how big your son's troop is, fgoodwin. Let's say it's around 30 or so. If yeh figure each boy advances twice a year on average, plus there are non-advancement SMC's, that's a whole lot of adult time, eh? On top of the "one hour per week per boy" that your SM is puttin' in with other youth mentoring and administrative chores. If you've never worn the SM patch, it's hard to understand what a hugely generous time commitment that job is, eh?

 

Overlappin' SM conferences with outings is a way for a SM to stay sane and not burn out, and still have a family and work life. Plus an outing is a fun environment, which makes it possible to follow the SM Handbook: "Make the conference special. Give the Scout your undivided attention throughout the meeting."

 

Seems like the appropriate thing to do is say "Thank you for givin' time for my son," rather than complain that yer not gettin' instant gratification.

 

As far as appeals go, demandin' time of volunteers is a mark of a "bad consumer." Yeh tend to get labeled by everybody as a problem case. O'course, your first appeal has to go to the troop committee, then the district. A wise DAC would schedule it for the meetin' at least a month and a half out, eh? Be at least 4 months before it got to the council level, 6 to 8 months for an appeal to national. Doesn't seem very practical, eh?

 

I also ain't never seen anyone from Irving hold a gun to a volunteer's head and tell 'em they had to give more time.

 

Beavah

 

[scottteng]

The other ASM's and I do a lot of scoutmaster conferences that is what we are there for they may be official ones for rank advancement or they may just be counseling sessions. Yes we do the official rank advancement conferences too! The most interesting that comes to mind is one last year with our current SPL who is a great kid and a good leader for the troop. He has unfortunately not been as conscientious when it came to merit badges. It was a SM conference for Star and in reviewing his completed MB's I determined that he was one Eagle required short of the requirement. He has since completed several partials and gone thru another summer camp completing the requirements. Someone had scheduled him a BOR also the committee also discovered his deficiency and came back to ask why he had had a conference. Yes he had a conference and was told he had to complete another Eagle required MB to be eligible for the rank. The long and short of it is a scout or the SM team which includes all ASM's can conduct a SM conference at any time. We try and maintain 3-4 ASM's and an official SM at all times. This is beneficial to our troop as we have had a one man show SM crash and burn spectacularly in the past.

[Lisabob]

If we are talking about a somewhat older scout then this might matter because it might keep him from hitting the time lines needed to advance to whatever rank before he ages out. In that situation, telling a boy he has to wait until the next campout that he can attend does seem to be a bad idea, as it puts artificial barriers in place that could be a serious problem (not just an inconvenience).

 

And honestly, it isn't logical - are you seriously telling me that the only time an SM has available is one weekend a month? I am sympathetic to Beavah's point that we need to appreciate the time commitment our volunteers are already making, but part of the SM's job is to do (or delegate out) SM conferences. If he truly hasn't got any time to do this and he isn't willing to have an ASM do it instead, perhaps he doesn't really have the time to be the SM? There are other scouting jobs that are less intense, that might be a better fit for such an individual.

 

I didn't read Fred's post as saying that he thought the SM should be at a scout's beck and call. Clearly we don't want to support that sort of attitude. I read his post as saying that there should be a little less rigidity in the troop policy.

 

 

[fgoodwin]

Lisabob, you are correct. If I gave the impression that Scouts (or parents) want the SM to schedule a SMC at the drop of a hat, I didn't mean to, and I apologize for my limited ability to properly describe the situation.

 

The fact is, I know of boys (not my son, but others) who've missed campouts and even though they were ready to advance, and had met all other requirements, the SM refused to conduct an advancement SMC at any time before the next troop campout a month later.

 

To me, that just doesn't seem right, but my eyes have certainly been opened by the many fine comments here. I will say that I now understand what may possibly explain the policy (truth be told, I think the ONLY reason our policy exists is to make our boys go camping when they might otherwise not; ours is a troop that requires at least 4 of 6 campouts in order to get leadership credit).

 

Thanx again for sharing your insights on this -- as usual, I wasn't seeing it from every point of view.

[Stosh]

Ok, I'm totally lost here. What goes on in a SMC that takes such a drain on the SM? A SM should be able to in 5-10 minutes clarify whether or not the boy is ready for a BOR. Am I missing something here that indicates that this is as big a deal as what seems to be implied with the responses on this issue? God forbid a boy is having some problems at home and wants to visit with his SM on a personal issue and has to wait a month before he gets penciled in to a SM that seems to be too tired to take the time to visit. If the troop is boy-led shouldn't the SM have plenty of time to visit with the boys one-on-one? My apologies for being thick on this, but I'm really not seeing the whole picture here.

 

Stosh

[eagle90]

I agree with JBlake. As a SM, I am there for the boys and will do a SM conference whenever and wherever we can. We have the fourth troop meeting of the month set aside for SM Conferences, but if a scout is ready, I will do them at any meeting. We just returned from Summer Camp and I did 16 conferences during the week. Just today we returned from a Whitewater Rafting trip to West Virginia, and I did a SM conference sitting on a log in bathing suits on the shore of the New River. Let's stop making things harder than they are and making our scouts jump thru unnecessary hoops. Seems to me all the rules and regulations would tend to frustrate the scouts. Let's remember why we are here.

 

Dale

[fgoodwin]

As usual, I'm not accurately conveying what's going on; my apologies.

 

Our SM is happy to schedule SMCs to have those ad hoc discussions about whatever is on a Scout's mind. But when it comes to signing off on the SMC requirement for advancement purposes, those are only allowed at campouts. If a kid misses a campout even though he's otherwise met all the other requirements for advancement, he must wait another month (or however many months it takes) until he can attend the next campout to get his SMC signed-off for advancement.

 

I should also add that, because we are a large troop (90+ boys), ASMs are allowed to do SMCs (we can do the ad hoc SMC and we can sign-off), but we are only allowed to sign-off on advancement at a campout.

 

As I've tried to indicate (and doing a terrible job of it), it is the limitation that advancment SMCs be done at campouts, no exceptions, that I have a problem with.

 

Thanx again for your thoughts.

[Stosh]

Ok, please help me understand what would take a SM more than 5-10 minutes to do a conference? Surely the SM can figure out whether or not he's ready for a BOR in that amount of time. If the boy wants to talk more than that take the time if it's a critical issue he's facing otherwise, set up a time where you can sit and chat where one's advancement isn't involved in the situation.

 

I agree that the extra hoops are inappropriate to the situation. I don't remember reading where SMC's have to be on any particular activity or location. I'm thinking I'm hearing a little power-trip going on with this SM. I'm with Dale on this. This is for the boys. If the SM can't accomodate the boys except on his terms, he needs to step aside and let someone who can do the job.

 

Stosh

[OldGreyEagle]

So many comments, and so little time...

 

First, as I am sure we are all aware, you can't make attending a scoutmaster conference for advancement in full field uniform manditory as that is adding to the rules. Any appeal based on that would be upheld quickly.

 

Now, as far as only doing them on campouts, I sorta see the logic in it, it's to encourage attendance on campouts. The real answer to flagging attedance on events is not to require attendance, its to make the campouts good enough the kids want to attend, not make them attend.

 

What do I think? I think its wrong, but I understand why its done. Perhaps when a scout asks for a Scoutmaster conference for Adanvacement the scoutmaster could say sure, I'll put you done for the XXX Trip. If the scout is not planning on attending this is the time to say so. If the reason the scout cannot attend is because a brother or sister is getting married or something like that, an alternative date can be worked out. If the answer is I am not comming because its boring, sounds like a scoutmaster conference for a reason other than advacement just broke out. It may be better to ask youth questions rather than tell them