Webelos and Camporees

[Crossramwedge]

We are having our "Fall" Camporee coming up. There is some confusion as to wether the "Webelos" can camp out and join in the festivities. Here is how they would like to do it. The "Webelos" register with the "Troop" but they have their own camping area set up which is probably near the Troop but there would be a definite dividing "Line". Their encampment is totally on its own. Each of the "Webelos" either has to have a parent/legal gaurdian register and camp out with him also. The "Webelo", with "parent", in tow is allowed to partake in all of the activities and get a feel as to what "Scouting" is all about. We have legal "Beagles" tell us that this is in violation of regulations and that under no circumstances can the BSA and "Webelos" camp in the same outing together. We have others say that this ought to satisfy the "safety" regulations pertaining to this situation and their argument is that this is a "Council" event and a two and one half day "Camporee", not "Summer Camp." The "Webelos" are not camping with the BSA so to speak but are on thier own and because they do have a parent legal/gaurdian present that this should be allowed.. Opinions please.

[Pack378]

for 1. As webelos you don't have to have a parent there.......... The way it was done at our webelos adventure camp was 1 adult leader for every 5 boys and two deep leadership.

 

What do you mean you can't camp with the troop? A "dividing line"? I can understand keeping the webelos tents together but not dividing them completely.

 

We do a troop/webelos camping trip every year and the boys tent/eat/ do everything together.

 

I can understand not wanting the parents in the camp site because it does disturb the "patrol method". Was this something the troop invited you to or was it something you invited yourself to? Also, is the troop using this as a recruitment tool? If so, the boys and one/two leaders (not parents) should be able to camp with the troop.

[GernBlansten]

Kinda like our district.

Webelos are invited by the troop to join them, but must follow cub scout regs on camping. They have their own tents and their parents join them. They share in the patrol meals. During the camporee activities, they are merged into the patrols. Often, patrols get more points depending on the number of webelos they have with them. Some webelos just come for the day and don't camp. Our winter camporee, webelos are not allowed to camp and must make it a day trip. This is for safety purposes as we can see sub zero weather.

The LDS are the majority of our units in the district and camporees are only one night (Friday). The LDS units break camp and head out before sunset Saturday. Us non-LDS units stay Saturday night and have our own program. The webelos usually hang around for that too.

 

[ScoutNut]

BSA policies are pretty clear cut on this one, and can be found in a number of sources.

 

From BSA "Cub Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines for 2006" -

 

http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/resources/13-361/index.html

 

"Webelos dens are encouraged to VISIT Boy Scout camporees and Klondike derbies. The purpose of these visits should be for the boys to look ahead with anticipation to their future as Boy Scouts and observe troops they might join. Webelos Scouts should not compete or participate in activities designed for Boy Scouts. Webelos Scouts should not spend the night at the event if the program is Boy Scout-based. A separate Webelos-only event known as a Webelos-Ree should be provided by the council or district."

 

Also -

 

"Webelos dens are encouraged to participate in joint den-troop campouts, particularly in the fifth-grade year. These campouts should be conducted with an individual troop for the purpose of strengthening ties between the pack and the troop. BSA health and safety, age-appropriate guidelines for Cub Scout activities, and Youth Protection guidelines apply. When camping with a troop, Cub Scout guidelines still apply for all Cub Scout members."

 

 

What all of this means is that Webelos are still CUB SCOUTS not Boy Scouts and all rules, regulations, and programing that they participate in should be for the CUB SCOUT level.

 

Webelos Cub Scouts should NOT be participating in a Boy Scout Camporee. The programing is age appropriate for the Boy Scout level not for Cub Scouts.

 

That all being said, some Councils and Districts do seem to ignore this National policy. Others, who follow National policy, will run a Webelos program (like a Webelos-Ree) in a different area, with a separate Webelos camping area, and visiting (not participating in) the BS Camporee will be a part of the Webelos program.

 

Age-Appropriate Guidelines for Scouting Activities -

 

http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/ageguides.pdf

 

Webelos-ree Planning -

 

http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/resources/13-238/index.html

 

 

 

[FScouter]

The reason there is confusion is that in the BSA program, there is no provision for Cub Scouts to camp overnight at a Boy Scout camporee. There is no BSA guidance on how to integrate Webelos camping into a Boy Scout camporee, thus you will get lots of personal opinions on the "right" way to do it. Webelos are day visitors at camporee. Refer to the Camporee Guide.

[mk9750]

At District events, we solved this problem by having a separate event code for the Webelos. At Klondike, Webelos sign up for Webelos Winter Challenge. They use the cabins, do not tent with Troops. They follow their Big Brother Troop throughout the day. they participate separately in the activites that are appropriate for them - They can build fires, tie knots, etc. They have associated events for areas they cannot participate in - They shoot BB guns while Boy Scouts shoot Muzzle Loaders (not at the same time. The Webelos go through a safety class while the Boy Scouts shoot, then the Webelos shoot BB guns).

 

The Troops feed the Webelos, and what we've seen is the better Troops (in our opinion) tend to have the Webelos actively helping with the cooking.

 

There is a separate Klondike sled race for the Webelos, and they compete throughout the day separately from the Troops for prizes appropriate to their age and Scouting level.

 

This is a recent change for us, after we were told that Cubs may not compete with Boy Scouts. We were never told they could not camp with a Troop, or that they couldn't particpate with Boy Scouts, but that they could not compete with older boys. That restriction seems reasonable, and we have made what we all (including our Scout Executive) feel are reasonable accomodations to prevent this, while still providing the value that comes from Webelos spending time and whetting their appetites for what is ahead of them in Boy Scouts.

 

Mark

[evmori]

At one time, Webelos were allowed to attend Boy Scout camporees & participate as Webelos dens against other Webelos dens. Great recruiting tool! Sad to say, this is no longer allowed!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[BrotherhoodWWW]

I'm glad Scoutnut quoted the actual National policy about this as I have learned something new. From last year's expierence with my son's former Pack our 2nd year Webelos Den did not attend the fall Camporee but almost the entire first year Webelos Den did. They were guests of my current Troop! The Troop only would have had one patrol without these added boys but their numbers increased them to two Patrols. Funny thing is they earned all of the top awards at this camporee. Perhaps National should revise their policy. Our Council does not do a Webelos-Ree, rather thay did a fall District cub-o-ree, same weekend as the district fall camporee. Perhaps they should have done both at the same time and place with age-appropriate activities for the cubs and webelos dens.

 

My opinion is that it is worth asking your district exec and/or unit commish. and/or Camporee Chair if Webelos are welcome as guests of a Troop for the whole weekend. Their answer may be in conflict with National Policy but I think Councils are given some latitude in such matters. Interaction between Webelos and Boy Scouts seems to me to be mutually beneficial. It helps make for strong Packs and strong Troops. It fosters relationships that can be deepened once the Webelos join the Troop. Not to hijack this topic but I do not agree with the current thought that Patrols should be divided by age groups. Older boys need to be teaching younger boys the skills they need to learn for T-2-1. IMHO having a buddy of your own age is far more important than having 4 sets of buddies in a Patrol all of the same age.

[insanescouter]

The way we do it where I am is to combine a Weboree and a Camporee, thus the activities are appropriate for the age groups. This seems to work verily well, and does help improve Troop / Pack relationships and bridging Webelos in to a Troop.

 

Scott Robertson

http://InsaneScouter.org

[Crossramwedge]

Our Problem is that we have one guy who is adament in sticking to"National Policy" JUST ONE. He says "policy is policy." He has already shot us down. At "Roundtable" last night we discussed having the Webelos camp layed out like I explained in my original post. BOOM first thing this morning we got an E-mail from a big wig from the "Council" telling us it ain't going to happen. We would like a loop hole to get this thing done. This one guy has taken us hostage so to speak.

 

Yes,I Know that Webelos are still "Cub Scouts". I have been involved in being an assistant leader in the Pack and have been directly involved in the 4th and 5th grade Webelos end of it the past 2 years. With out going into a lot of detail, let me assure you that they are quite capable of handling a "camp Out" with the BSA, especially if it is set up the way we wanted to do it. (Check original Post)We would then drop the "Partaking in activities" and go with observation only. I totally agree with the statements that Brotherhood WWW had to stay. Quote: "Interaction between Webelos and Boy Scouts seems to me to be mutually beneficial. It helps make for strong Packs and strong Troops. It fosters relationships that can be deepened once the Webelos join the Troop." By the way I am the "Camporee Chair" and I and all of the other SM and Cub Masters want the "Webelos" there. But we cannot find a way around these regulations. I do not even know if we offered a "Weboree" that coincided with the "Camporee" with seperate camp sites and activities would satisfy the powers that be. We are going to be meeting with our DE next week to see if we can work this and other things out. This DE is young and has never been involved in "BSA" scouting before. She probably will follow the "Council" execs. Lead. Any more suggestions?

[insanescouter]

Only one loop whole coming to mind at moment (12:30 midnight) ...

 

A Troop can invite a Webelos Den to go camping with them, correct? Why couldn't they "invite" the Webelos to tag along with them to the Camporee... I will ask my dad about this, he has more experience in this kind of thing - maybe we can find you an answer ...

 

Scott Robertson

InsaneScouter.org

[John-in-KC]

CRW,

 

Option A: Let them visit; follow the guidelines. You've already seen them here.

 

Option B: From the G2SS, it is possible to organize at the same site and date a Council opportunity for:

Pack Overnighters

These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use Pack Overnighter Site Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.

 

At least one adult on a pack overnighter must have completed Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) to properly understand the importance of program intent, youth protection guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts shall be issued locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No. 34426.

 

(Boldface denotes BSA policy sourced to the G2SS from other documents) It means 1/1 environment. It means every Pack has a BALOO trained leader. It means overnighter, not weekend.

 

Can your property for Camporee provide for two co-located, but not co-mingled, events? Are your Packs willing to do what it takes (1/1 evironment) to make this happen? Is the Training Committee ready to put on several iterations of BALOO on short notice?

 

If so, go for it. Have a Council sponsored Pack Overnighter Saturday and Sunday of Camporee Weekend!

[FScouter]

In our district Ive participated in similar discussions about adding Webelos to the Boy Scout camporee event. Some have advocated opening up the event to bear dens too; theyre practically Webelos and its not fair to deny them their right to have fun, and Webelos need to bond with a troop. Weak arguments in my opinion; there are far better ways to accomplish those ends.

 

The sole motivation for including Webelos in a Boy Scout camporee is simply that the district activities committee does not want to make the effort to plan and run a Webelos Web-O-ree event. They seek to avoid the necessity of running a separate event on its own date, with its own program. Troops and Webelos go along with this because they see a good excuse to skip planning a joint den-troop campout.

 

For this convenience factor, Webelos are deprived of having their own event, tailored for them. Boy Scouts are distracted from focusing on their patrols to accommodate the little kids. Its not a good thing.

[Crossramwedge]

KC, Thanks. That is basically the structure we were going for and we would follow all of the regs. as far as what the "Packs" need to do to camp over night. We may have the room for two separate camp sites. The problem then is what degree of separation between the two camps would have to be maintained to do this. 100 feet, two hundred feet and so on. But I do get the drift of what you are getting at. We would keep it to one night for the "Webelos" and they could only "Visit" the camporee as guest. I will present this to the Council again in the manner that you presented it to me and see if we can change their minds. If we got their approval I believe we could do it this year. If not we could do it next year.

 

KC, this is more than a "Camporee" it is also our cities "Fall Festival" and there are a lot of things going on. But the "Scouts" are up front in this and have been for several years. Until 2 years ago, the "Webelos" where there. Then the BSA "Legal" beagle bit us.

 

The City depends on us and wants us to do everything we can do to facilitate a good "Festival". There are old time situational re-enactments going on, we have Mountian men and old time "camp" set ups, skits between outlaws and Marshalls. People dressed in costumes of the late 1800's strolling around. All this is seperate from the "Scout" encampment. The "Scouts" then enter the "Old" time encampment area and are put front and center to demonstrate their skills. We consider it a win/win situation for us and the city. We would like to have the "Packs"/Webelos there if there is any way possible to do so. It would be a learning experience as well as possibly the highlight of the year for them. Thanks to all of you guy's for your suggestions.

 

[Crossramwedge]

It may not be a good thing in your opinion, but the majority Sm's and Cub Masters in this area want to do this. This is an "Annual" event and in these circumstances they want the "Webelos" there. This would be the one and only yearly event that the local Council "webelos" would be allowed to do this.