Boy's not given option to where to attend a " high adventure" camp

[Crossramwedge]

The SM and the great majority of the other adult leaders in our troop have picked out where we are going on the "Troops" big outing next year. This was not discussed with the boys nor where they given an option nor asked their advice as to where "They" may want to go. I understand every troop has economics to work out and I believe the adults chose this particuliar trip because of the cost. More bang for the buck so to speak. Do not get me wrong, its a great trip. BUT if this is truly a "Boy" led Troop, I believe that the boy's should at least have input in to where they would like to go and then have the adults explain to them the good and bad of each "Trip" they want to take. Money, distance, transportation etc, etc,. I am pretty sure if the boy's had a chance to vote on it, this trip the adults picked out would not be the one they would prefer. Any input?

[John-in-KC]

What's your position in the Troop SM/ASM pool or Committee?

 

There's always the option of laying the methods of Scouting on the table and asking: "How are we developing leaders when we do not let them make fundamental program decisions. We can always give them some limits and say go for it. Or is this a matter of "we know what's best for the children?"

 

True story: When I was CC, the one of the young men had gone with the co-chartered Crew to Philmont. He wanted to do a Troop high adventure trip next year. Convinced enough boys that they came to the Committee and said "We want to do a HA." SM and I looked at each other and said "OK... let's start by you finding us some places which look rewarding."

 

They eventually chose Packerd.

 

Based on you've said, if the SM and Committe are hard over to go to HA base X, if there is another troop nearby, I'd be visiting with them and asking about how they do business...

[Pack378]

I was in a true boys run troop.

At the beginning of each year we would have a meeting with all the boys and we voted, suggested, argued about what we were going to do for the year. The adult leaders after the fact would make it happen. The only true way for this trip not to happen is for the senior patrol leader and the patrol leaders to make a stand. I know mutiny is not an easy thing but sometimes it's the only way.

[FScouter]

It sounds like "the SM and the great majority of the other adult leaders" have not learned anything from chapter 8 of the Scoutmaster Handbook, "Troop Program Planning". Or they have chosen to ignore it.

[Eamonn]

From what I have seen in our District, the Scouts have no say in where they camp next summer.

Just about every troop attends the Council Camp.

Same site, same week each and every year.

In fact to secure their spot they sign up before the end of the week for next year.

The Council does have a High Adventure trip every year, offering Sea Base, Philmont, the National Jamboree on some sort of a rotation. These trips tend to come with a fairly big price tag.

On the bright side, everyone knows where they are going, when they are going and just about how much it's going to cost. It also helps the council have some idea what is happening.

The not so bright side side is that after about 3 years the Scouts no longer see it as an adventure or much of a challenge and they lose interest.

Ea.

 

[oldsm]

My troop does the same-camp / same-week / same site routine. We have boys continually going back or else doing CIT and then going on staff.

 

We also try to do a "high adventure" trip each year, although they're usually more of a medium-adventure trip IMO.

 

For several years I have tried to challenge the boys in the PLC and the troop to dream big - to come up with a REAL HA excursion. I've shown them pix of Philmont, Northern Tier, and Sea Base. We've shared info about back-country camping in national parks. We actually did a trip to Gettysburg 4 years ago. Next summer I they've decided to try spelunking in Kentucky, after one boy told them he'd done it on family vacation and how much fun it was. The adult leaders are behind them!

 

What I find is that most of the boys really have no idea what else is "out there" beyond the comfort zone provided by their local community. They are so focused on familiar things that they have not yet learned how to dream big. I would appreciate suggestions on how to overcome this limitation.

[EagleInKY]

We do the same routine (of course we've only been around for 4 1/2 years). Every year we present the idea to the PLC. We list out the pros and cons of staying put or trying something else. Every year the PLC chooses to stay put. They like the friendships, the familiarity and the fact that they can try different things each year (COPE, Tower, Adv COPE, Pathfinders {a venturing program}, BSA Lifeguard, Staff CIT, regular Staff, etc.)

 

[Lisabob]

Well I guess we do variation on a theme. Generally the SM will pick out 3-5 camps that he is willing to go to, and that he thinks offer a good array of programs for the boys in the troop at that point in time. He then shares the info with the boys and they vote.

 

Some years, we have boys who probably could make a good decision about where to go completely on their own, or who could have had (or wanted) more input into the initial selection of the 3-5 camps. Other years, we've had so many really young or immature scouts and they really needed that guided, structured type of atmosphere.

 

For HA, I would think you'd be dealing with boys who would be more competent in choosing for themselves. But then too, I think there could be times when some adult limits (time, distance, cost) might be important even there.

 

If the boys in the troop are really unhappy about the HA opportunities available to them, encourage them to have a quiet conversation with their SPL, who in turn should have a conversation with the SM about allowing more options to come under consideration. That assumes, of course, that the troop leadership is open to that sort of input (they ought to be, but we all know troops where that wouldn't be the case).

[Eagledad]

I'm Lisabob here, maybe it is a Bob White thing.

 

When we were young and learning the Boy Run game, we adults didn't give our scouts as much choice as we should have mostly do to ignorance and inexperience. And the scouts let us do it mostly out of habit of adults telling them what to do. The adults are making choices based from adult concerns like economics. The boys will make the choice based from the appearnce of fun. The two can and should work together, but first they both have to learn that they can work together. It's a growing thing for everyone. I like Lisabobs idea of the SPL approaching the SM and asking that the scouts get more involved. I imagine the SM will first justify why they didn't, but then consider the idea and make it work.

 

Barry

[Spiney Norman]

Early in the spring our troop had two meetings of the PLC to decide on where to go for HA this year. The SM compiled a list of where the troop had gone in previous years and I brought along some other suggestions which I knew would not be on the list. The PLC was also informed prior to the meeting to bring along suggestions of their own.

 

After discussing the issues the boys took a vote and by a slim margin voted for renting a houseboat on Kentucky Lake for a week. The troop had spent a week there once before but only because their whitewater rafting trip in Arkansas was cancelled due to flooding on the river there. I wasn't very happy about the outcome as I thought their decision was more of a vacation choice.

 

At the second meeting one of our troop's recently aged out Eagle scouts attended. He had been a den chief to many of the boys when they were Webelos and garnered their respect. He did more to encourage the boys to push themselves than any of the adults could. The boys finally settled on whitewater rafting in WV on the New River much to the adults relief.

 

I would like to think that what happened was indeed boy led, but also adult directed.

 

Ken

 

PS Next year's HA trip is a fait accompli as we were lucky enough to win a spot at Sea Base for the second time in three years. We have been trying for almost ten years to get even one spot.

[Eagledad]

I think your troop did well Ken. I cant see the house boat as high adventure because where is the adventure, and I can see how the adults would struggle on the line of boy run there.

 

What we did was kind of define High Adventure differently then Fun weekends or other activities. I had a group of scouts who wanted to spend a weekend riding roller coasters. Not much high adventure, but defiantly an opportunity for development from my thinking. I suggested a scout take on lead, build crew including adults, plan the trip with the crew and lead it. It worked great because younger scouts who couldnt go on older scout trips joined, along with older scouts who didnt care much for outdoor High Adventure. Our troop also planned a ski trip every year the same way. This allows you a lot of expansion of your program and opportunities for development for all the ages. Multiple trips for scouts to choice from, more opportunities for leadership and planning development, more opportunities for younger ages, and a better defined explanation of high adventure.

 

When our troop started looking at trips this way, we found ourselves doing three or four different trips a year. At least was one High Adventure. The groups or crews got a little smaller, but more scouts and adults overall in the whole troop got to participate in at least one trip a year. And you will likely find your troop growing a lot when the word gets out. Some scouts would just rather go on a trip to NASA then Philmont. As for me personally, I got to watch a lot of Crew Chiefs develop into good leaders.

 

Barry

 

[Beavah]

Yah, Crossramwedge, sure. Boys should be decidin' on their high adventure trip or big outing. Actually, boys should not only be decidin' on it, they should be doing all the planning, budgeting, and fundraising for it too, eh? And then just presentin' the plan to the committee for approval, with a list of things they need as "adult support."

 

O'course, not every group of boys is there yet, eh? All of us adults fill in a bit to support boys where they're at... givin' 'em some resources or narrowing choices to a list of options or handlin' the financial side are all reasonable levels of adult support. Even choosing and planning most of da trip can be OK, if the boys have never seen a "big trip" before. Just that the goal should always be to educate the lads, so that the next year they can make it even more their own.

 

Lookin' at your past posts, it seems like your roll in da troop is as a committee member. In that role, I'd gently bring up that it would be nice to have the SPL and ASPL involved in the planning, and push that idea bit with the SM and CC. That's about the limit of your role.

 

Now, your son might have other ideas . I think it's just fine for the boys to come up with their own plan and bring it to the committee as an alternative.

 

Beavah