The Softening of Scouting

[SSScout]

In the topic of Neckerchiefs:::What Kudu and Nessmuk said...

 

Since the Boy has become a Scout, I have had a chance to compare Then with Now. I have begun to feel that alot of Scouting has been 'softened' to supposedly make it more appealing to "Todays Boy". (a spin off?).

 

Consider:

** Neckerchief becomes a decorative item, rather than of intended, practical use. It is "optional", by Troop decision.

** Rank requirements have been obviously eased, Frinstance, no signaling requirement for FC. (you find the others).

** Uniform in general is less military ( a good thing) but has lost it's practicality. Cuffs on short sleeves? Yeah, multi pockets on trou are better...

** Upper rank requirements (S,L,E) have been "stream lined" with many of the E required MBs now required for S and L.

** The boy no longer has to plan for himself, what MB to earn, how to find a MB counselor, how to become a POR, etc. The Troop has in house MB counselors and planned MB sessions, on a schedule, that by necessity MUST lead to Eagle.

** The beginning ranks (Sc,T,SC,FC), demonstrably have less outdoor stuff to do. The Scout Handbook has less instruction on outdoor skills and games than the older Handbooks. "Scouting for Boys" became "The Handbook for Boys" became "The Boy Scout Handbook". Is that significant?

** The "Field Book", which was a volume of advanced outdoor skills, is now more a manual of Junior Leadership Training. With my older FB I can identify trees, barbecue a whole ox, and pass the first Scout Ranks. With the new FB I can lead a trip to the Sierras. Is this better?

** Oh, that's enough for now.

 

What say you, young and older ?

 

YiS

 

 

 

 

 

 

[theysawyoucomin']

Agreed.

I've said it before nothing prepares you for good solid planning like backpacking. Real backpacking. Not a let's go for a hike and check the box.

 

I know a Scout who is a fine boy. Bright, well behaved, kind to others. Everytime the Pl asks for activities he suggust: laser tag, indoor rock gym, pool party at his house.DO YOU SEE THE PATTERN??????

 

Will be an Eagle some day as he is self driven.

 

Now some would say, "You are just looking to make it harder for him"

 

No, I wish to expose him to true self reliance.

 

He may even love backpacking, you never know. But he will never know because there is no box to check, therefore he won't do it. By the way, he is somewhat slight but he is not handicapped in any way.

 

The way the regs are written now camporees and summer camp are the roughest it gets. Camporee at the fairgrounds? forgot something? Run to the store.

Camporees are nothing but car camping.

 

I don't know about morse code, back in the day the USMC sent me to code school. I could do 14 words per minute with a pencil. Other than read thoams and jean yawkeys name at Fenway I've never use code either in or out of the 'Corps.

 

I think we give lip service to the patrol method. If a patrol leader doesn't earn the honor patrol patch during his tenure what has he done? The bugler and librarian don't lead anybody. If the instruct doesn't ever give a class or help younger Scout his POR is just words on a patch.

[John-in-KC]

SCOUTING COMPETES WITH ...

 

Soccer

Basketball

Baseball

Football

Nintendo

Swimming

Tae Kwon Do

Judo

Karate

Music

 

 

for a parents, and their boys, attention. If the advancement plan had remained where it was when I was a youth member in the late 60s/early 70s, Boy Scouting as we know it would be well nigh dead.

 

The advancement plan is designed to move a young man along the trail and give him a view of the valley, the river, and the Eagle's nest when he makes Life. Having experienced the 1965 edition advancement plan (1 ER MB for Star, 5 for Life), I like the current plan.

 

As for signalling, so what, who cares? The important element in youth education is the Scouts ability to communicate his thoughts. When a really good flagman was almost competitive with a Teletype machine, that was one thing ... and that lasted into the 60s. These days, bandwidth available allows me to send elaborate artwork in real time from A--->B.

 

I agree that T-2-1 has been weakened in terms of basic outdoor skills. I also honestly believe removing Cooking from the Eagle list was a major mistake of the National Advancement Committee. I'm divorced; the fact I can cook for myself, vice paying for pre-packaged meals or doing the restaurant allows my food dollar to go much farther. I honestly rate it as an essential skill of manhood, which for the most part seems to be one of the criteria for selecting MBs on the Eagle list.

 

We won't even talk about the Parlour Scouts de la Renta uniform.

[Beavah]

SCOUTING COMPETES WITH ...Soccer, Basketball, Baseball, Football, Nintendo, Swimming, Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Karate, Music

 

Yah, dat's interestin', eh?

 

What I notice about all the other activities J-in-KC mentions is that every single one of them puts a big, big emphasis on skill development. The boys work, and work, and work some more in order to get really good at the skills for makin' layups, makin' tackles, or makin' it to the next level at Nintendo. They get to experience real personal achievement at skills development, and their parents & peers get to see it.

 

Do we really do that in Scouting anymore? Work, and work, and work at perfecting skills until they're really good at it and know it? Do kids get to have that kind o' fun makin' the next level? Seems like more than half of the troops these days are mostly just checkin' boxes, and so boys are lookin' for real challenges in other activities.

 

Da other thing I notice about J-in-KC's list is that there's real, hard measures of accomplishment for each. Video games, your peers know you've made level 27, and you can beat 'em at Doom. For some, the measure is real competition (most sports). For others, the measure is real testing (belt tests for martial arts). For most, there's a notion of makin' the "A" team, the guys who are "really good."

 

Do we really have anything like that in Scouting anymore? Are BOR's really a hard measure of accomplishment like a belt test? Is patrol competition really like a soccer match? Do our kids really practice outdoor skills on their own as much as they practice trumpet? Is da troop high adventure group really the "A team"?

 

Yah, it seems like kids and parents are gravitatin' toward the activities with "harder" expectations. Probably because those activities yield more recognizable growth and achievement.

 

Beavah

 

[evmori]

Yup Scouting competes with tons of other youth programs & sports. But why make the Scouting program so "vanilla" that it is only a shell of what it should be? Scouting is about being outdoors, camping, building fires, pitching a tent, taking a hike, canoing, learning how to ties knots, etc. That doesn't appeal to everyone. Big deal! Don't water down the program! Not every boy is interested in Scouting! Get use to that fact! Make the program the best outdoor program there is! That's the appeal! Not the "We Are For Everyone" approach!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

Just an alternative thought:

 

The Mission Statement of the Boy Scouts of America is :

 

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

I don't see outdoors listed there at all, its a method. And there is a long time poster here who is fond if saying the methods are not required. Some Troops implement the Uniform method, some don't place a lot of emphasis on it. Some Troops place a good deal of effort in the Patrol Method, and some not so much. Some Troops want their scouts to go outside the Troop to earn merit badges and others want their scouts to only use in troop merit badge counselors. There seems to be a lot of play in the methods so why would the outdoor method be any less likely effected?

 

What is the final measure of an Eagle, a youth who can chop down a tree with one hand while simultaneously lashing together a handy camp gadget with the other OR a youth who can decide for himself the difference between right and wrong and influence other people, to do good ?

 

What do we want our end product to be?

 

 

 

[acco40]

 

** The boy no longer has to plan for himself, what MB to earn, how to find a MB counselor, how to become a POR, etc. The Troop has in house MB counselors and planned MB sessions, on a schedule, that by necessity MUST lead to Eagle

 

The above is a troop choice, not a change in the BSA program.

 

OGE, I agree with your post about the "end product" and there are many ways to get there but if one does not use the 8 methods to reach that end it isn't Scouting (please replace Scouting with BSA or American Scouting if you have issues with that).

[emb021]

"** Rank requirements have been obviously eased, Frinstance, no signaling requirement for FC. (you find the others)."

 

I don't see an issue with the drop of signaling. I would hope that most requirements are similiar to the old. Time change.

 

"** Uniform in general is less military ( a good thing) but has lost it's practicality. Cuffs on short sleeves? Yeah, multi pockets on trou are better... "

 

I do find that overall the uniform is less useful in the outdoors then in the past. We have been 'less military' in our uniforms since the 30s or so, btw.

 

"** Upper rank requirements (S,L,E) have been "stream lined" with many of the E required MBs now required for S and L."

 

Sorry, don't agree. Some E requirement MBs have ALWAYS been required for S & L. If you'd bothered to check, by and large the requirements for S, L, and E really haven't changed much in DECADES.

 

"** The boy no longer has to plan for himself, what MB to earn, how to find a MB counselor, how to become a POR, etc. The Troop has in house MB counselors and planned MB sessions, on a schedule, that by necessity MUST lead to Eagle. "

 

As someone else has pointed out, this is not a National program change, nor something that exists everywhere. This only occurs in SOME troops, not others. This is more a feature of troops that some call 'eagle mills', who seem to focus (too much IMO) on getting kids to Eagle.

 

 

[emb021]

"** The Scout Handbook has less instruction on outdoor skills and games than the older Handbooks."

 

I collect Scout Handbooks. I find the older ones PACKED with lot more information then todays. But then, the older ones had thinner paper, smaller type, fine detailed b/w line drawings. Over time they have gone to bigger type, less text and more pictures (with more and more in color), thicker paper, etc. I think its more a trend of what boys today expect.

 

" "Scouting for Boys" became "The Handbook for Boys" became "The Boy Scout Handbook". Is that significant? "

 

IMO, no.

 

"** The "Field Book", which was a volume of advanced outdoor skills, is now more a manual of Junior Leadership Training. With my older FB I can identify trees, barbecue a whole ox, and pass the first Scout Ranks. With the new FB I can lead a trip to the Sierras. Is this better? "

 

Again, I have the old Field books. I have to wonder if the changes in the Field Book, mirroring the changes in the Handbooks, is more due to the larger change in how such works for kids are done. Its part of a larger trend, IMO, and one I don't like. But its not solely the fault of the BSA, but them following this trend (instead of bucking it)

 

 

[EagleInKY]

I agree with your synopsis. Other than the MB "classes", it's driven by national policy. I also agree that it is reasonable to expect outdated activities to be eliminated (signaling). What I wish would happen would be a replacement with something similarly challenging. For example, signaling could be replaced with a requirement to participate in a lost scout exercise as both a "victim" and a "rescuer".

 

I'm going to spin off a topic related to our experience at camp this year. Several activities were canceled due to weather. In the "old days", we would have sucked it up and trod through it.

 

 

[evmori]

What does the average Joe think of when someone mentions Boy Scouts? I would bet camping & hiking & stuff like that. I doubt the average Joe would spout of the mission statement.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[BrotherhoodWWW]

Scouting has become a business. Local council execs spend more time dealing with numbers and ratios than I'd guess they did years ago. I also think that the "target" audience for Scouting has shifted to younger. The target audiance for the BSA now spans from first grade until 21 years of Age, and beyond if one wants to be an adult leader. Years ago I do not think you found very many eagle scouts without driver's licenses, today most probabaly earn (?) Eagle prior to even taking Driver's Ed. The first Eagle Service project I helped was in 1975. The Life Scout had a driver's license, drove his families station wagon containing myself and 2 or 3 other scouts to a park across the county line. IIRC we fixed some picnic tables. The troop we were in had functioning patrols and competition between Patrols at both the troop, district, and Council level was serious business.

 

As society has become more urban I think National has adapted the program to fit the needs of a more urban population. Many of the places where I first backpacked one drank water directly from the stream, camp fires were allowed 12 months every year. Now I do not know of a single source where you can drink water from a stream. Fires are restricted in many places. Some places require backpackers to schedule and make reservations long in advance.

 

I think that Scouting has turned the corner and is drifting back towards its outdoors roots. There are still many areas where I feel changes could be beneficial such as getting rid of the Varsity part. Encourage Patrols with a broad spectrum of ages. Older Scouts teaching younger Scouts the skills needed. That in and of itself gives the older Scouts a reason to be there and if they are truely helpful, friendly Scouts the experience will be worthwhile. The OA should be the Honor Campers Society of the Boy Scouts, there should be Tap-outs, bring back the warbonnet wearing Souix, and keep parts of the ceremonies Secret. Stop buying into the PC crowd. There are plenty that will never like us because we require a belief in God! All these things can be accomplished while still maintaining youth protection. All these things can be done and those same folks that do not like us because of our insistance in a belief of God will still not like us.

 

Of all the things that I do not like about Scouting as it is presented by BSA today I still find it a worthwhile program for my son and myself. I'm only think it could be better.

[Gunny2862]

Again I agree with Most of what has already been written, but to throw in my 1.25 cents...

 

Cooking should be a required skill, how are you self reliant if you can't feed yourself.

 

Morse Code, we would really have had for things to have hit the fan (nuclear war and EMP (Electro-Magnetic Pulses) frying all of the non-tube based radios) for either of these to be a necessary skill set - and if they were where are you going to find a tube based radio AND power to operate it with? Good things to learn if you are into HAM radio? Sure. I'm a HF radio guy myself, love it, as a hobby and for history's sake. But as a realistic means of communication now, only for the very few, very skilled who can also afford the costs.

[Kudu]

"The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

"I don't see outdoors listed there at all, its a method.

 

"What do we want our end product to be?"

 

Um, in real Scouting the end product is the absolute mastery of outdoor skills. The bearing that influences other people is the result of the values learned while achieving this absolute mastery of outdoor skills.

 

The Mission Statement is written by the same people who cheat at the historical Baden-Powell quotations that they feature so predominately in their printed publications. This is not some minor editorial glitch, but the embodiment of the ethical and moral stance that the ends always justify the means (even to the extreme position of "I don't see outdoors listed there at all, its a method").

 

That these phony quotations continue to stand so boldly without anyone ever noticing is an measure of the lack in the BSA of institutional memory: how both Baden-Powell and the people who actually authored these quotes understood the nuts and bolts of Scouting. NASA discovered the same problem with institutional memory when they started to gear up for George Bush's return to the moon. None of the remaining engineers was familiar with how to actually build moon rockets.

 

Beavah writes:

 

"What I notice about all the other activities J-in-KC mentions is that every single one of them puts a big, big emphasis on skill development. The boys work, and work, and work some more in order to get really good at the skills for makin' layups, makin' tackles, or makin' it to the next level at Nintendo."

 

Yes, and I bet the popularity of each of these sports is inversely proportional to the carry-over value that the component skills (layup, tackle, etc.) have in everyday life. Signalling was never about learning the most practical way to communicate thoughts (and note that American Sign Language, which is not outdated, was always one of the signalling requirement options). The point is for a boy to use his human hands to convey human code (the relationship of observation skills to secret meaning has always been fascinating to boys). Should we force kids attending Tae Kwon Do, Judo, or Karate summer camp to act like Boy Scouts and sit still for boring abstract lectures because practising Tae Kwon Do, Judo, and Karate was made obsolete by the stun gun?

 

"Do we really have anything like that in Scouting anymore? Are BOR's really a hard measure of accomplishment like a belt test?"

 

BORs? In real Scouting the "hard measure" of each rank's Scoutcraft skills is an adult-free wilderness trek of ever-increasing difficulty.

 

Kudu

 

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

[Gonzo1]

Indoors or parlour are not methods.