How comitted is your C/O & can a pack change thier C/O

[Ekmiranda]

Hi Guys,

 

This is really a Three-part question.

 

I am having a problem with the C/O. In the past and up to the present my C/O has not been an active C/O. The straw that is breaking the camels back is the fact that I have asked for funds to pay for three leaders to attend Wood Badge. The C/O flat out said no based on the fact of commitment of my leaders. My Leaders commitment far exceeds any commitment that the C/O has shown in the past or present.

 

The C/O does not have a presence at any Leader meetings, does not come to any pack nights and basically has no idea how the pack is run. They know nothing about my leadership. The Pack is running well therefore they are not getting any feedback of bad issues. The questions are 1) How active and committed should the C/O be in the Packs working 2) How does one go about looking for and changing your C/O 3) Am I wrong in asking for the C/O for funds to pay for Wood Badge.

 

Lifer EKM

[Lisabob]

What sort of organization is your CO? Do they really have the $600-$700 to send three people to WB? Do they understand what WB is and why it is worth the money? Do they care? Do they understand that the pack - and pack leadership - is part of their youth outreach program and not just something that they happen to sponsor for no good reason?

 

OK now to answer your questions.

 

1) In the two packs and one troop I've been part of, we've never had an involved CO. The only times our COs have expressed any interest is either when they want something we can't give them (like the current CO, who demanded that we fundraise - in uniform - for them) or when they're mad because we've asked for money (often for something they don't understand why we want/need/expect - that's our fault, in part) or when there's a big problem and they're getting negative feedback about us. They don't attend our meetings, or activities, or award ceremonies despite being invited.

 

Other people write about much more positive and active relationships with their CO's - I wish I could say the same. Barring that though, an oblivious CO is better than a meddlesome one. Except when you want something from them, because then you have a lot of educating to do if you expect to get what you want.

 

2) I don't think you were necessarily wrong to ask for funds toward WB but maybe you needed to set up your request differently. If they don't know you, your pack, the other leaders, or the aims and values of scouting, then a request for $600-$700 for training for a volunteer organization might seem unreasonable. They need to understand how cub scouts serves youth in more ways than just by giving boys something fun to do once a week. They need to buy into the values at least a little bit (more than just re-signing the charter agreement). Then they need to be given a glimpse of the strengths of the unit, and of the weaknesses, and finally, they need to be told how, specifically, WB would help improve on those weaknesses so that the pack can fulfill the purposes of scouting, and thus improve the ability of the CO to do youth outreach or whatever it is they specialize in. You are an extension of them - but they probably don't see that clearly enough.

 

And I would expect a leader to pay at least part of his or her own way to WB, even if the CO chips in.

 

3) Switching COs just because they aren't highly involved and won't pay for WB sounds a bit extreme. Yes it can be done but your district professionals should be involved because they are charged with managing the CO relationships. And they probably will ask you (as is reasonable, IMO) to do what you can to build up this existing relationship rather than starting from scratch. Switching COs can be a lot of work too, so you have to ask whether it is worth it, or whether your effort could be more profitably spent doing something else for the pack.

[ScoutNut]

"1) How active and committed should the C/O be in the Packs working"

 

Should be & is are 2 way different things. Ideally the CO should be using their BSA Units as their organizations youth outreach group. However there are more CO's out there that do not do this than do.

 

Our CO is active, if not overly involved. They pay for everyone's recharter each year & will help with equipment purchases. However, our COR comes to less than 1/2 of our Committee meetings, none of our regular Pack meetings, & usually only attends our B&G dinners.

 

 

"2) How does one go about looking for and changing your C/O"

 

I also think that changing CO's because they will not pay for Wood Badge is a bit much. Working to improve the relationship will be better in the long run. If you would like help in either finding a new CO, or improving your current relationship, contact your District Executive.

 

 

"3) Am I wrong in asking for the C/O for funds to pay for Wood Badge."

 

No, you are not wrong. You will never find out the answer unless you first ask the question. However, I do think you are wrong for being mad at them for saying no. That is a SERIOUS chunk of change you are asking them to shell out.

 

Perhaps, when they say that the commitment of your leaders is the reason they turned you down, they mean that, unlike Boy Scout leaders, Cub Scout leaders do not traditionally stay with the Pack very long. If the leaders who you want them to pay for are Bear or Webelos, perhaps they feel the Pack (and hence the CO) will not reap the benefits of the money spent.

 

If the leaders in question can really not afford the cost of Wood Badge on their own, you might ask your council's Wood Badge Course Director about council WB scholarships.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

Many COs are oblivious, as Lisabob describes. I doubt that very many of these apathetic COs would be willing to send their Scout leaders to Wood Badge. Our CO is a church and relatively more involved, but I wouldn't have even thought of asking them to send someone. Your CO may think that they're already doing you a favor by giving you a place to meet (or whatever else they do). I'd be surprised if you can switch COs and immediately get the new CO to pay for the course.

 

Someone may chime in and say that a pack can't officially change their CO. I think that technically you start a new pack with a new CO. But in practice packs do change COs often enough that it's not all that unusual. I know a couple packs around here who have done it.

 

So, my answers:

1) Completely inactive can be ok.

2) I wouldn't do it based on what you've written. But if you really want to, then find some organization that people in your pack are associated with (e.g. a church) and ask them if they'd be willing to do it.

3) You're not wrong to ask. But I'd say you're wrong to expect them to say yes.

 

Oak Tree

[scottteng]

All the WB people that I know have paid their own way for wood badge. I have seen some on this forum where a unit has contributed to the individual to go.

We make the scouts pay or earn their way on their camping trips. When you pay for it yourself you are more motivated to get the most out of any activity.

[Ekmiranda]

Let me clear a few things up that I should have stated earlier.

The leaders that are in question are as follow 1) CC who is my wife and in this for the long haul as I am. 2) ACM his son is a Tiger and is going to be around for at least 4 more years 3) Webelos I leader who has committed to me that she is going to stay with the Pack for at least a few more years as Committee. And the leaders also offered to pay half of the training.

[Scouting Mom]

Our CO is so uninvolved that every 2 years we have to inform their newly elected president that we exist.

 

We get no money from them at all, ever. We get banquet space for free in their building and we have a storage shed on their property. That is the extent of their support.

 

Changing COs depends on the CO. They can make it as easy or hard as they want. AND any new CO you find isn't going to be thrilled to learn you want money from them from the start. You need to build that relationship first. It would probably be easier to build a relationship with the existing CO.

 

Playing devil's advocate... If I were your COR, I'd want to know why do you want to send three leaders to wood badge? why not one at a time? What will the benefit of this be to the pack and to our organization? And by benefit, I want specifics. The idea of being better leaders is all well and good, but what kind of a ticket do they have in mind that is going to be a benefit to the pack and CO directly? As far as questioning the leaders' commitment... if the leaders are parents, who in 2-3 years, are going to follow their sons to a Boy Scout unit not affiliated with the CO, than the CO has a point that these leaders are not committed to the unit specifically, but rather to their son's scouting career and/or scouting in general, which isn't necessarily a long term benefit to the CO or to the pack.

 

Have you looked into wood badge scholarships? The AFL-CIO and VFW each offer 3 scholarships annually per region.

[FScouter]

If you want the chartered organization to take an interest in THEIR pack (not your pack), then first take an interest in the CO. What has the pack done lately for the CO? Have any pack leaders attended any CO meetings or events?

[SWScouter]

FScouter brings up a very good point. A lot of leaders forget (or don't know) that they are serving at the pleasure of the CO not the unit. You have to keep in mind that you are a volunteer of the CO, not just the BSA.

 

SWScouter

[fgoodwin]

Some Councils offer scholarships for those who wouldn't otherwise be able to attend WB21C -- you might ask your DE about it.

 

Also, some employers have been known (or so I am told -- my employer is not one of them) to pay for some or all of the cost of WB, since it is basically leadership training. Our WB course director had a standing offer to write a letter to any employer on behalf of prospective attendees. The letter was to explain the business benefits of WB training.

 

Again, ask around and see if your WB CD would be willing to do this.

[Beavah]

Yah, Ekmiranda. Good questions, eh?

 

I think some CO's are "respectfully involved". 'Round here, the "big guy" chartering orgs - the Mormons, da Catholics, and da Methodists tend to understand the relationship, though individual parishes/stakes might miss the boat. These orgs all have internal documents on "Scouting as a Youth Ministry" that help, often with some organizational muscle invested in starting units and such. It's common to find other chartered organizations mostly detached from unit operations, unless a leader in the CO happens to be a scouting promoter. Public school PTO's tend to be da most detached, IMHO. To your specific questions:

 

1) They should help select and approve leaders, maintain enough contact to make sure you're not runnin' off da rails, and provide basic resources (meeting space). Ideally, they should be more involved, but there are tradeoffs; involvement goes both ways - the more a CO is involved in the Pack, the more the Pack needs to be actively involved in da mission and efforts of the CO.

 

2) Units can't really change CO's, but your adults and kids can move and start up a new unit at a new CO . This is somethin' yeh need to coordinate with your DE.

 

3) Nope, you're not wrong in askin', though it's worth considerin' whether "a scout pays his own way" applies here. But IMO it never hurts to ask. Yeh may be oversteppin' if you can't take "no" for an answer. You're askin' for a fair chunk of change. How "present" are you in the life of the CO? How well did you make your case that such a contribution will really advance their mission?

 

Every NFP has lots to do and a small amount of money with which to do it. Givin' money to you means not givin' money to someone else in the organization. "No" is an OK answer, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[moxieman]

In response to #2:

 

Your chartered organization owns your pack. They own the equipment, the checkbook, the savings account, even your pack number. You can 'switch' CO's, but don't expect any physical part of your current pack to come with you to the new pack, not even the unit number.

 

I learned this the hard way many years ago when I unit I was helping basically folded due to a lack of leadership. As the last leader, I found another unit for our youth to join. I approached our CO Representative to see if they would be willing to spare three tents (out of 50!) to help the unit the boys joined. No way, they weren't willing to part with three of their tents.

 

 

As our district exec explains it to folks:

 

Scouting is like a franchise like McDonald's. The National Office franchises out (charters) units to local sponsors/owners (chartered organizations) through the council office.

 

Good luck. The others who have responded have given you some great advice.

[scoutldr]

Ekmiranda, no offense, but you have very high expectations. Having a non-involved CO is the norm, in my experience. We even have to pay the $20 recharter fee ourselves. Our CO (a struggling Methodist church) gave us a key to the "fellowship hall" out back (think portable classroom), that is termite ridden and falling apart. We even shared the room with a rat this past winter. (He seemed like a nice rat, so we co-existed.) They even went so far as to ask us not to use the heat, since it cost them money for the 90 minutes per week that we use the facility.

 

In exchange, we are grateful that there is no meddling in the troop operations such as what some of our fellow posters experience, and we get signatures when we need them. Count your blessings.

[ASM915]

moxie is correct in that the CO technically owns everything, if the Troop Committee doesn't take proper precautions.

 

Now I may be wrong, but I have heard of Troops/Packs that have made up contracts with their CO's as to who owns what, what is the CO's and what belongs to the Troop period. That way the CO can't get their hands on Troop/Pack monies from fundraising, dues, etc. Also, if the Troop came into the agreement with equipment, that the equipment belongs to the Troop, not the CO.

 

moxie, who bought the tents? Was the money from the Troop fundraisers and dues, or did the CO spring for them? If it was the Troop's, the CO made off like bandits, no pun intended. If it was the CO's money, you'd at least think them would be willing to help a little, unless the parting was not on good terms.

 

MOM, the 3 VFW WB scholarships are for VFW members involved with the Troop as leaders or Comm. Members, if I remember correctly.

 

Ek, about 6 years ago, our Troop and the CO, a Catholic church had a falling out over who was going to pay for the recharter and adult leaders membership fees. Th church had always paid before, but had a new priest. The priest also wanted all the leaders to go through a Diocesan YP background check, at the leaders' expense, fingerprinting and the whole nine yards. Now the church paid for it's CCD teachers, people involved with the Youth Group, but refused to pay for the Troop leaders.

 

The Troop must have had a signed agreement with the church as stated above, because when the then SM talked with the VFW and the VFW offered to become CO, everything, accounts, equipment and Troop numbers changed hands. Then again the Troop had been in town over 70 years, and maybe the priest saw the wisdom in not bringing bad PR to the church by insisting on keeping things the church had not help buy.

 

Good luck.

 

Typos, Typos Typos.(This message has been edited by ASM915)(This message has been edited by ASM915)

[prairie]

As others have said be happy if your CO signs the paperwork, provides meeting space and equipment storage but otherwise leaves the troop alone. Our new CO provides signitures and so far funds for new troop and US flags, the first co from 40+ years ago still provides meeting space but we lost our equipment storage priviliges with them when a new pastor decided it wasn't right. Now the SM is stuck with storage dutys, luckly he has space but its not handy for the troop.