James E. West

[Eamonn]

One of these days I'm going to find the time to find out more about James E. West.

I kinda know a little about the role he played back in the day.

Knowing that him and BP didn't get along has in some ways turned me against him. Which really isn't very fair on my part.

Of course as a Scout in the UK, we were brought up to believe that BP was a super hero who could do no wrong.

Ea.

[baden]

West is a troubling character. He presided over the initial growth of the BSA and had great success. He is responsible for the structure that we have today for good and bad. I am often troubled by "corporate BSA". There seems to be a disconnect between the professionals and the boys. I often wonder if this is not one of West's legacies as I perceive that he was not comfortable with the boys.

 

Having said that I doubt if BSA could have survived long under the direction of the "mystic", Seton. I also doubt if Beard could have come near to matching West's accomplishments.

 

One thing I have always admired about West was his integrity and his refusal to exploit the early popularity of the BSA by commercial interests for his personal gain.

[Miki101]

"Mystic" Seton? That's an interesting characterization for someone devoted to Native American lore. Reverence to the Great Spirit deserves more credit than that.

 

Actually, BSA would have probably lasted for many years under a Seton regime. However, like his own Woodcraft Indian organization, it probably would have folded upon his death. He was such a strong visionary and spiritual leader among the Woodcrafters and he made himself irreplaceable. West, however, crafted a machine that depended upon no one individual.

 

That's the big difference...although West longed to have the rapport with the boys that Seton and Uncle Dan Beard had. That was West's own shortcoming...being an office-bound workaholic.

 

Eamonn, you might as well read Ed Rowan's bio on West, it's the only one out there and makes for a jolly good read.

 

David C. Scott

 

[scoutldr]

Happy Birthday, Mr. West. (May 16, 1876 - May 15, 1948).

 

David, when will your book be out? I am looking forward to an autographed copy!

[Miki101]

Some time in 2008 (hopefully early). I have been working on several other book development projects and they have slowed down The Scouting Party. The research is done, however, I just have to finish up the arguments and story line.

 

My next book out is my quotation book on the Americanism & Patriotic wisdom of Theodore Roosevelt.

 

I'll look forward to signing a few of them also.

[epalmer84]

Miki101- I have re-written the West article through the first three sections. The last three sections are actually the original article and will disappear when this is done. I mainly edit this at work during lunch, so it goes a bit slowly. I usually start of my Wikipedia day by reverting vandalism and good-meaning folks who add stuff that just is not right; you would not believe some of what gets written about the Scout handshake.

 

I welcome any specific comments about the West article; or dive in and edit it yourself!

 

I have more appreciation of West at this point. I think B-P was mostly critical of West's bureaucratic organization. Sir Percy Everett discussed the BSA organization with B-P and found it commendable for the conditions of American society. From what I can tell, West was autocratic and a micro-manager, but he really did care about the boys. I suspect he was jealous of Beard and his rapport with youth.

 

I have to agree with baden in that Beard and Seton would have had great programs, but they would have been more local and more tied to their personalities; I'm not sure of the sustainability of such programs, but that is speculation. Perhaps someone (Harry Turtledove?) could write an alternative history of the BSA with a POD of Seton staying in the organization.

 

As Miki101 said, get the Rowan book for a really good read on West.

[Miki101]

epalmer,

 

That history will be out in 2008...using Seton as the central character...based upon facts and documents.

[emb021]

West...

 

As others have pointed out, get the bio by Rowan. Good read. I've always had mixed feeling about West. While the bio gave me a better understanding of West, my feelings still stand. West was good and bad for the BSA. It was unfortunate that Beard and Seton weren't able to be a better counter to West. It was due to West's hard work that the BSA survived and grew. I also feel that some of the bad organization things about the BSA is due to things West put into place.

 

I am not aware of any issues between West & B-P. I am aware of issues between West & Beard and Seton. (the bio touches on these).

 

I think 'baden' is correct. Whatever the merits of Beard & Seton's program, they would never have been the success of Scouting that the BSA became, in part due to West.

 

I believe that some of B-P's issues with the BSA organization is misplaced. UK society is different from US society. While UK Scouting was able to grow and thrive will mainly volunteers, the BSA very much needed professional scouting to truly grow, or it would have been small and pretty much a regional program.

 

[Eamonn]

While I don't claim to be very knowledgeable about the early days in Scouting.

From what I have read about what happened in England back then it seems to me that in many ways things were a bit of a mess.

This might be because BP had never intended to see Boy Scouts as a stand alone organization.

 

While I love the story about William Boyce and being lost in the fog, I have heard that West made a lot of it up?

Ea.

[emb021]

"While I don't claim to be very knowledgeable about the early days in Scouting.

From what I have read about what happened in England back then it seems to me that in many ways things were a bit of a mess."

 

I don't have as good a feel for the early days of scouting in the UK vs the US. Maybe just not enough has been written about that period. Johnny Walker's site is a great resource. I know when I read Hillcourt's bio of B-P, that if you kind of read between the lines about the various splinter groups and rival groups, that you have to wonder what was going on. While some may disagree, I think one of the good things that West did was to put a stop to that and bring them all into the BSA. Did the BSA cleave to B-P program as closely as they should have? Sadly, no, but that is mitigated by the fact that they DID change (thanks in no small part to Hillcourt) to be more in-line with B-P's program.

 

"This might be because BP had never intended to see Boy Scouts as a stand alone organization."

 

That is true. Its quite clear that was not his intention. The creation of a Scouting organization was something he did not plan for, and may have been a large cause of some of the inter-organization (maybe inter-movement) issues.

 

"While I love the story about William Boyce and being lost in the fog, I have heard that West made a lot of it up?"

 

Um, yes, sadly. This was one of the big revelations (to me) with Rowan's work. There is a small element of true (very small. itty bitty), but its mainly fiction.