Size limits

[Oak Tree]

In the parent thread, Trevorum mentioned limiting a troop size to around 50.

 

Well, we're there. We just had an influx of 16 new Scouts in two patrols, taking us to around 50. It's a lot of growth to absorb, and no one really wants to grow any bigger. Fourteen months ago, before crossover, we were at 22 Scouts. The PLC has specifically discussed that they want to cap the troop. All the adult leaders are happy to cap the troop.

 

We might look at spinning off a new unit eventually - could be another troop, or more likely a Varsity Team or Venture Crew. But for now we just want to put a limit in place and take a breather while we catch up. I've already asked the DE to refer any random inquiries to other local troops.

 

My questions for the forum:

Have any of you limited your troop size? Any issues or problems?

 

The last thing we need is for all of our new boys to go out and recruit new Scouts. But that's unfortunately precisely a written requirement. "Invite a new boy to a troop outing, service project, or meeting." How could we handle having a cap in place but still allow boys to meet that requirement?

 

Thanks,

Oak Tree

[kb6jra]

My troop is under 30 at the moment so all I have to offer is the info I got from a fellow Scoutmaster.

 

We've got some very large units nearby, and I'm relativly good friends with most of the SM's in my district. One unit had at one time about 150 members, which meant about 80-90 active at any one time.

 

The Scoutmaster was telling me that when a troop hits a certain number, 75 or so, you have to keep feeding it new blood or it will wither and die. His words, not mine. It seemed he spent more time recruiting than more important things, like program and training...

 

My idea of a perfect troop is about 40. That's plenty IMO. With 50 boys you could have a healthy troop and a healthy Venturing Crew. That would be fun...

 

Good luck

[John-in-KC]

I'm not quite sure if it's out on the internet, but I've heard of a Commissioner's College thesis that says the optimal size for a troop is 50 or so... OR LESS!!

 

5 Patrols of 8 boys (POR: PL)

 

Troop leadership:

SPL

2 x ASPL

QM

Scribe

Bugler

TG

Historian

Instructor

OATR

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I've seen lots of troops of different sizes, eh?

 

Close as I can tell, every unit grows to the "natural size" that its adult leaders can handle. When it gets above that natural size, it doesn't matter how many boys that troop recruits, they will lose kids until the troop drops back down to its natural size. I've watched it over and over again. When I was more naive, I would try to help small troops of 12 or so grow by beating the bushes and gettin' 'em a big recruit class. By the next year, they'd be back down to 12.

 

So I'm kinda in favor of units "capping" their membership at a level they know they're good at. That way the rest of the boys are free to fill in to other units or start new ones, but we're more likely to keep 'em in scouting.

 

I think one natural unit size is 25-45. That's a size that allows for several patrols and a lot of activities, and even a decent high adventure patrol. The scope is still within what an SPL can handle, the SM can really know all the kids and families, and going on a campout does not require huge transport logistics. These troops start to feel "ragged" when they get to 50 or above.

 

So if yer in that group, Oak Tree, where the SM likes to know each boy and engage that way, rather than bein' a guy who acts as manager over a cadre of ASM's that run independent programs, then yeh have to stop growin' now and put a limit on. That's a service to your adults, kids, and families, and a service to scouting.

 

Now, there's good and bad ways to do limits. Yeh want a consistent recruiting class each year, rather than havin' "big" and "small" years. And you want friends to stay together and not to get people grumpy. Usually the first cut is to just tone down your recruiting. I've seen some units "up the cost" in terms of expected activity level or even dues, to reduce demand. Both of those generate less grief than limited spots and wait-lists.

 

Beavah

 

P.S. I'm actually slightly in favor of Trevorum's limit, too, though there are some fine "Big Troops" out there with adults who like to run that kind of program. Da reason is that those adults are kinda rare, and very often when the SM eventually retires, those big troops collapse fairly quickly. So it seems like at least in some ways, the limit may be for the long-term greater good. Maybe. Those big troops when they're healthy are also strong programs, so it's hard to figure which way things lie.

 

[Oak Tree]

Yes, Beavah, you've articulated my feelings fairly well. I think that I could in fact expand beyond fifty without getting ragged, but that would involve some changes to the program, and everyone seems quite happy with our current size.

 

Some of our 14 year old Scouts have said they don't think anyone would want to be a member of a huge troop. It reminds me of Yogi Berra's statement that "No one goes there any more. It's too crowded." Clearly the huge troops are doing something right. But we don't really want to be one.

 

Our recruiting classes are fairly consistent at this point, because we have a feeder pack. We've actually done no other recruiting beyond trying to ensure a smooth transition from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. But we have a good program, and other boys are showing up anyway. Around 10 of our 50 boys have come from somewhere other than our feeder pack.

 

My most immediate problem is actually how to deal with the First Class requirement that the boys go out and invite someone in. If we cap our membership, at least temporarily, what could we tell the boys to do about that requirement?

 

John-in-KC and kb6jra, thanks for the responses. You accurately describe my feelings as well.

 

Oak Tree

[Stosh]

It is my opinion that size is relevant to program, area of serivce, and adult leadership.

 

For many years we were considered a premier, high-adventure type of troop. We have our own canoes, and canoe trailers, we have a troop trailer, we take weekend trips that some other troops take all year to plan for, we take multiple teams to Philmont when we go, and when we go to BWCA we've always had to have multiple entry permits. This has always been what we do because it's what we know best how to do it. In the past couple of years we have had a large influx of Webelos cross-overs and our numbers have swelled to almost 30 boys. Needless to say, many of our programs do not work well with that many boys and we've had to restrict attendence at some of them which does not set well with either the boys or the adults. If a patrol wants to go, we as adults are mandated to making it happen. Only the event's regulations ever restrict our boys.

 

We could never have 30+ boys and be anywhere near as effective as we have been in the past. This year we're taking 21 boys to summer camp, which may be no big deal to most troops, but it's going to be 1,000 miles from home. The adult support logistics of such a trip is a major commitment from parents/leaders and strains our resources to the limit. Because of the distance of travel involved with this year's summer camp, we're having only one other high adventure trip this year.

 

There is no way with the program we have, will ever be able to handle a troop size much over 30 boys. Can we grow our troop? Sure, but we would need to alter much in how we function as a whole.

 

Stosh

[Beavah]

My most immediate problem is actually how to deal with the First Class requirement that the boys go out and invite someone in. If we cap our membership, at least temporarily, what could we tell the boys to do about that requirement?

 

Yah, this one's a bit of a nuisance.

 

I'd make it a more general requirement.

 

* Give a talk to a community group, school class, or set of friends about what you've done in scouting and why it's cool; or

* Write a letter to the editor, school newspaper article, or paper for school on your scouting adventures; or

* Become "pen pals" with a webelo in our feeder pack, and correspond several times, telling him about what you're doing in Scouting and why it's fun. Finish by being the webelos "buddy" at his first troop activity.

* Talk to your DE, and figure out where the district is trying to start a new unit. Use your boys to recruit for that new unit. It's always tough to get going without kids talkin' to kids.

* Do a service or promotional activity in the general community wearing your scout uniform.

 

In short, anything that involves the lad promoting scouting in some way to the broader community. Might be to parents, might be to community leaders, might be to other kids, might be to folks who are potential donors.

 

That seems to be in da spirit of the requirement, without the awkwardness of inviting another boy to visit a program that has no space for him.

 

Beavah

 

[Lisabob]

Quite honestly I don't think the 1st Cl. requirement is a major issue. How many boys can we, here on this board, personally account for who have joined OUR troops, as a result of this requirement? We actually had a couple who came to a meeting or two, but that was it - they never filled out the paperwork and we never saw them again.

 

Whatever national's intent, so far my observation is that this requirement is a bit of a joke and does not translate into big numbers of new boys joining scouting.

[Oak Tree]

You're right, Lisa, I don't normally see much of an influx from the requirement. I've contemplated using that fact as a possible way of dealing with the problem - just not announcing a cap and hoping that we don't get much of an increase until next crossover. But I've already had three boys join in the past two weeks, so I'm getting nervous. I don't think the boys who are inviting their friends along are doing it because of the requirement - I agree with your assessment on that. I'm just trying to prepare myself for the inevitable question that would come if we were to announce a cap.

 

I was discussing it with my COR and CC today, and we're leaning toward some version of generalization on FC requirement 11, as Beavah describes. We have no cap yet, but it's always good to be prepared. Thanks for the discussion, and I'll continue to take suggestions.

 

Oak Tree

[Eagledad]

Hi Oak Tree

 

We were at exactly where you are at, we started with 15 scouts and got 50 new scout in two years. We looked at all the options you mentioned. We visited and interviewed several troops to find the best way to limit the troop and I wrote an essay on our experience a few years ago. After several years of watching units from the District and Council level, I feel this essay is pretty accurate. By the way, when I left as the SM about five years after I wrote this essay, our troop had 90 scouts. We were very boy run and 40% of our scouts were 14 or older.

 

Barry

 

Troop size and Troop program (Facts & Myths)

by Barry Runnels

 

Everyone has a preference and can list the pros or cons of each unit with regard to size and program. There are some very fine units with all numbers of Scouts. Usually what makes a unit great is a group of adults who focus on what the Scouts get out of the program, not what the adults get. Each one of us has had our own experiences through life, our own way of doing things and our own way of handling situations. We are called Scoutmasters because we supposedly have mastered our life from our experiences. Scouting allows us to hand down what we have learned. How the dominating adults hand those experiences down to the Scouts is going to determine what kind of program your troop will have.

 

Your troop will form itself to a size that fits the program. If you work to be a true boy run troop, you will probably never get larger than 50 ACTIVE Scouts. The SPL in a truly boy run troop can only handle a maximum of 50 Scouts. Really 40 is better. You can rearrange, move around and split groups all you want, but in the end, if the SPL is in charge, 50 Scouts is the limit. Anything more, requires adults to get more evolved with the day-to-day program.

 

If your goals are a large troop and boy run is not a primary concern, then your troop will handle that large number. Whether they know it or not, and most dont, its usually the Scoutmaster who determines the size of the troop by how he guides the program.

 

If a Scoutmaster works through the Patrol Leader Council, the troop will grow to a size the PLC can manage. Increases beyond that will cause the program to suffer and the Scouts and parents will leave for a better program until the numbers fall to a size the PLC can manage. If the SM works the program though PLC and ASMs, it will grow to that size. If the SM works through the adults, the unit may grow very large.

 

The adults in a troop need to agree on what they want the Scouts to get from the program. If its rank and advancement, then it can be more of an adult-run program that will handle lots of boys. If leadership and behavior are more of a priority, then a troop may have to slim down a bit to allow the Scouts to learn from their actions.

 

A few myths:

There is a myth that you should feel obligated to accept large numbers of incoming scouts so they can enjoy your wonderful program. The truth is, if the troop size greatly changes, your program will change. Logistics, equipment, number of Patrols and adult leaders will change just to keep up. If the adults and scouts are not ready, you will loose about 25% of your Scouts while the troop leadership scurries to catch up. Your wonderful program may no longer be so wonderful. If you do expect a large influx of new scouts, your leadership should plan now so you dont get lost when they do come. And prepare for a different program that fits your new size. Not necessarily better or worse, just different.

 

Another myth is that you have to keep your numbers low to stay boy-run. Well, yes and no. As I write this, we are the third largest troop (in our district) hovering around 80 Scouts. And we brag to be very boy run, maybe the most boy run troop in the district. But at any given time through of the year, we average about 40 to 50 Scouts at meetings. Sports and other outside activities keep us to that number. So the program is still manageable for the SPL and we maintain a very active boy run program.

 

Another myth is that that splitting your program solves the big troop problems. Not really. We looked at this several different ways and talked to a lot of units who did it. Every unit said that it doubles the logistical problems of the troop for the leadership. The split didnt really solve many of the big troop problems except space. In fact, every leader said the program still felt big and the problems tripled because the communication and management became more critical. Even though each group was smaller, they were still run like big groups, so they still lost the Scouts and adults who wanted a small group program. Units that liked and worked well with the split program had more than 200 Scouts. Thats a lot of scouts. You might go this way, but dont expect to solve your big group problems. Splitting the troop just allowed the big troops to get bigger. If you split, I suggest splitting into a whole new troop with a different charter. STILL difficult, but it forces each adult to focus on one troop and one program.

 

Yet another myth is that you have to take every Scout that comes to your troop. You dont. You dont have to do anything. We have never turned a Scout away from our troop, but I always give visitors names of 4 or 5 other troops in town. I know how important it is to find a troop that fits the family. Those troops are grateful for the help (and isnt being helpful the Scouting way)? Some troops control size by high initial dues. Some control it by only inviting a small limited number of Webelos Dens. Troops that I have seen turn away Scouts up front usually regret it later by the reputation developed from that method.

 

What I am trying to say is you dont really have much control on numbers. You can try, but its difficult. You do have a lot of control on your program. And your program will probably control your numbers. The adults need to sit down and discuss goals, and your experience in the program that will lead you to those goals, (as will training and help from other sources). You need to decide what you want the boys to get out of their experience in your troop and build your plan of action to reach those goals. This may all seem vague and difficult, but if you dont do it, you will regret it later when youre r standing there watching 100 screaming scouts running around waiting for the program to kick in.

 

Gather your adults and ask them to speak openly about where they want the program to go. Agree on a plan and explain that plan to everyone in your troop and visitors to your troop. Then drive the program, with your PLC, to that plan. Eventually your numbers will fit into the program that comes from your plan. Of course the plan will change on the way to your goals, but that is a given. Just recognize the need for a plan and to have everyone working towards it. Ask for prayers, they help a lot. Ask for help from Scouts_L, there is a lot of experience there.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

The Troop of my Youth was a really happening organization. Eventually it was capped at 65 youth, (Since we were Troop 65, Wood Dale, Il)and each youth were expected to have a parent/guardian working in the Troop Committee or as an ASM. And we had a waiting list. I had mixed emotions about this as a youth, how could we limit our wonderful experience? As an adult, I understand. We blossomed to 92 at one point and didnt do a good job, hovering at 60 we do much better.

 

I don't see how telling a Troop they have to take more boys than they can handle benefits anyone, Like "Dirty" Harry Callahan says "A man's got to know his limitations.", works for organizations as well

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[BrentAllen]

Oak Tree,

Does your CO also charter a Pack? If it does, then the boys needing the 1st Class requirement could invite those Webelos II's to visit.

 

Also, as far as limiting growth, maybe your leaders decide to accept all boys until you reach a certain number, after which you only take boys from your CO Pack. I've never seen that in actual practice, so I can't give any feedback on it. Just a thought.

 

The Troop of my youth did not have a CO Pack. We started small and grew pretty quickly. They limited membership for awhile, at 40, and had a waiting list. I think the troop cycled through membership numbers over the years, so I don't know how many boys they actually turned away or had on waiting lists. That is something I have seen at most troops - their membership numbers will fluctuate up and down, sometimes wildly, over the years. Have plans for both extremes, if possible.