can charter schools be COs?

[Lisabob]

Some of our professional staff assert that the answer is yes. The argument in favor that I was given was that charter schools are different from traditional public schools, and that they aren't as bound by "political correctness."

 

My initial response was that they're still public schools, albeit of a somewhat different stripe, so the answer ought to be no.

 

Not trying to start a big political flame war here! But I'd appreciate any knowledgeable feedback (please let's avoid merely rhetoric - I don't want to have to move this to the issues & politics forum. This is a real question about a specific potential unit, not a hypothetical.)

[Beavah]

Yah, OK, please forgive my pedantic-ness.

 

Charter Schools are public schools (schools that are owned, operated, and funded by the state government). They just have a different management/governance structure than "traditional" geographic school districts.

 

As public schools, charter schools are subject to exactly the same constitutional limits as any public district, and are subject to most of the same funding laws. Only the management & governance is different, eh? (this is a bit simplified, because charter school laws vary a lot between states).

 

Can a public school/charter school be a CO for a BSA unit? "Yes" for a LFL/Exploring unit. "Maybe" for a traditional unit, but it might be subject to legal challenge on first amendment grounds. That just depends on where yeh live and what the community is like, and how belligerent someone wants to be. But because of that risk, and the good probability of losing such a challenge, the BSA has been encouragin' public school chartered units to transfer their charters to private organizations. That same rationale applies equally to charter schools.

 

So

 

1) Legally, the same constitutional limits (and potential challenges) apply to charters as traditional public schools.

 

2) Both can choose to charter units if the BSA lets them. That's a decision by the school/district to incur some risk of a challenge.

 

3) Charters may be more willing to accept the risk, because they tend to be smaller communities than geographic districts, where everyone knows each other and people are philosophically "on the same page." Some of the governance/management differences also mean that it is less likely that public support really flows to the unit in any real way (for example, charters typically don't own their building, and their building is usually not funded by public bonding, so use of the building after hours might simply be a matter of permission from the private building owner, rather than a school-provided resource). That's their call, to decide how much risk they want to incur, eh? Reality is da costs are pretty low if yeh just say "oops, sorry" when you get a nasty letter, or fairly substantial if yeh opt to fight it out.

 

4) In general, the BSA should be equally reluctant to enter into chartering relationships with chartered schools as they are with traditional public school districts. Certainly, they should be "up front" with the charter school management about the issues. I think it should be the school's call, though.

 

So in the end, I think Lisabob's initial response is on target, eh? The answer should probably be "no" in most cases. Just like geographic public schools, it's just as easy and less potential hassle to use a private organization (PTO?) as the charter partner, and meet at the school.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Whether its a Charter Public School, or a regular Public School, the question is can an atheist student attending that school join an organization that the school owns and runs?

[Lisabob]

Yep, that was exactly my concern OGE, Beavah. Thanks for verifying that I wasn't leaping to unwarranted conclusions. The person on our professional staff seemed to think it would not be a problem. But as a district membership committee member, I want to see solid, lasting units with no public relations disasters. I'll ask him to re-visit this issue.

[nldscout]

Not all charter schools are public schools so the answer is who runs the school.

[Beavah]

Yah, that seems like a good way to go, Lisa'bob.

 

nldscout, I'm a bit perplexed, but maybe I'm not aware of something. "Charter School" as far as I know is a term used exclusively for public schools (schools ultimately controlled by a government body whose funding is primarily or entirely from state tax revenues). I know dat's the case in Lisa'bobs state, because they're close by. But to my knowledge, all Charter Schools are public schools. It's hard to keep track of everything goin' on in the several states, though. Do you know of somethin' different?

 

It is true that charter schools can contract with a private management company to run the school (even a for-profit company, like Heritage Academies). But that's true of regular public districts, too. Chicago Public Schools could contract with Heritage Academies to run some of their schools if they wanted to, or they could contract out special education or school bus service. But they'd still be public schools, eh?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[ASM915]

Lisa,

My wife going to start wondering who this Lisa is that I keep chatting with. LOL

 

Our R&M Committee is trying to make some inroads back into the public schools. That's for another thread.

 

As for Charters, my son attends one for Special Needs Students with AS and ADD. It is tied to the public schools, but is run by a private management firm. Actually the person that started the Charter also runs the PMF. The PMF owns the buildings.

 

When he started the school (now schools, in Oh. and Fla.), he based a lot of the structure off of the Scouting philosophy, being an Eagle Scout himself. The schools start at 2nd grade and at present go to 11th grade, 12th being added next year.

 

The whole program is registered as a "Special Needs Troop". All eight Ohio schools are registered as the same Troop, all under the same Council. Go figure. At least one Councils numbers look good to National. The reason being given for doing it this way is that four of the schools are located in that Council and they have an awesome Spec. Needs program.

 

At least initially, most of the male staff and management were Eagle Scouts.

 

The Scouting program is incorporated into the school day. At the start of the day, the students stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance and the Scout Oath and Law, depending on which division they are in. Each class has 1.25 hours a week to use for a meeting time. They have an area Council member acting as SM that travels between the schools providing the program. He sets up three or four campouts a year, usually at parks that are centrally located. A parent must attend the campouts with the Scout to handle medications.

 

At this time, the second thru fifth graders are set up as Cubs and Webelos, the sixth thru eighth graders as Scouts and the ninth grade up as Venturers. The schools have a Outdoor Education Program at a Camp started by someone who has ties with the school. At least the OEP provides a good outdoor program for the kids. It even has a COPE course with a certified instructor, who runs a good High and Low Elements program.

 

Unfortunately, the program could be run a lot better then it is, but the management is not really open to suggestions. If they were, they could be running a model program that would be the envy of many a Councils. At least the OEP is great.

 

I'm not sure who the CO is, but I bet it is the management firm. If so, since they own the buildings, they can get away with it.

[nldscout]

Beavah,

 

Depends on the stae, in NY a lot of charter schools are private.

[nldscout]

Beavah,

 

Depends on the state, in NY a lot of charter schools are private.

[mtm25653]

Several people have mistakenly said that some charter schools are private.

 

This is not true and is one of the biggest misunderstandings about charter schools. Some charter schools are run by school systems or colleges, other are run by private organizations (either non-profits or for profit companies), but the definition of a charter school is that it is public. (I have been involved with charter schools for 9 years - my husband has been on the board of our sons' school for most of that time.)

 

From the NEA (teacher's union) website:

Charter schools are publicly funded elementary or secondary schools that have been freed from some of the rules, regulations, and statutes that apply to other public schools, in exchange for some type of accountability for producing certain results, which are set forth in each charter school's charter.

 

NEA believes that charter schools and other nontraditional public school options have the potential to facilitate education reforms and develop new and creative teaching methods that can be replicated in traditional public schools for the benefit of all children

 

 

The chartering organization (non-profit or for-profit company) could charter a unit, but the school itself can't. The board of my son's school (a separate corporation that runs the school) has considered chartering a troop/pack (most of the board members are current scout leaders or scout parents), but has deferred that decision until we have our own building (we meet in a shopping center now.)

 

[Beavah]

Depends on the stae, in NY a lot of charter schools are private.

 

nldscout, I had to go check to make sure, eh?

 

I'm afraid mtm is right for NY, eh? Charter Schools in New York are very definitely public schools, chartered by your State Board, the SUNY Regents, or local districts, and fully funded by public $.

 

Like any public district, a charter school can contract with a private group for educational and management services (like curriculum & instruction, or food service or bus service), but that doesn't make them a private school. That makes them a public school that subcontracts for some (or all) functions. They're still a creature of the state, and bound by constitutional and statutory law.

 

Beavah

 

[Hunt]

I agree that with respect to the school itself, there would likely be the same restrictions on owning a BSA unit as with any other public school. However, if the charter school is run by a non-public non-profit or for-profit entity, I'm not sure that that entity couldn't be the CO of a BSA unit. There would still be arguments against it, but it would certainly be more complicated.