Troop Money

[epalmer84]

Lots of good thoughts here.

 

The big thing is to head off money issues before it creates rifts. You do need some sort of oversight- the CO should be doing this in some manner, as technically the money belongs to them.

 

Our sister pack folded when the CM started "borrowing" from the funds. We later found he had kited checks all over town. There was a lot of acrimony and we lost a number of Cub Scouts. "Luckily" personality issues had caused the pack to split and form a new pack that is still running strong.

 

Ed

[result1]

Thank you all for the information,

 

It normally would never cross my mind to question, (Wheres the money).

 

The summer camp fundraiser (not all the money was deposited so the money is gone the Troop roster of who worked when is missing or lost). And I agree with the Committee Chair, just move forward.

 

If they could have figured out how much money will be applied to the scouts summer camp from the funds that was deposited in a timely manner it would have never been an issue.

 

I understand that they all are well-meaning volunteers doing their best, but its been 4 months since the summer camp fundraiser, there is no excuse it should take this long.

 

I also have to question, if you cant close out one fundraiser, how can you start a new one.

It will just add to the confusion. But guess I should not say anything as it took 4 months of talking about fundraiser to get this one on the calendar.

 

You all gave me a lot to think about. And I agree, Open books - It isnt really practical to invite troop adults and parents to look over the books. On the other hand having closed books would appear someone is trying to hide something.

 

Troop books should be accurate and complete, and audited from time to time. I also tend to agree that the Treasurer should be creating a monthly report for the Committee. Its my understand that has not been done for the past 3 years.

 

Also like the thought of that report, as well as Committee Meeting minutes, should be provided to any parent who requests them. Keeping everything out in the open and preventing rumors and innuendo.

 

Strongly agree, Combining the position of Committee Chair and Treasurer or Scoutmaster and Treasurer is a recipe for bad news.

 

I dont know all the function of the Committee Chair, nor do I really care. But I do have to agree, The CC is to see that all the committee functions are being handled; not to do the work.

 

But in this troop, nothings seem to be down without the CC. Meaning many dont even want to have a committee meeting with the CC.

 

FYI about the weekly dues, that was my misunderstanding. Turns out that I have been over paying. It was confirmed last night that the scouts only pay dues for the meetings that they attend.

 

Thank you all for your input on this. I may end up contacting the Chartered Partner with my concerns about the funds. But after really thinking about this past years with this troop, may be the council was right and I should look for some other troop, may be better organized and better for my son with advancement and outings etc.

 

Thank you all again

 

[John-in-KC]

I'm a little concerned about a comment you made:

 

"I dont know all the function of the Committee Chair, nor do I really care."

 

The CC is the responsible adult for all support matters of a Troop. Advancement management, chartering, funds accountability, Troop property... the Chartered Partner looks to the CC to be the steward of everything a Boy Scout Troop does, except the Program. Program is the province of the Scoutmaster.

 

A Troop Committee needs lots of folks to be there in the background: The trailer does not get licensed all by itself. Somebody's credit card buys the new tents when they wear out from fair wear and tear or are accidentally destroyed by a Scout. Someone is making sure new Scouters get the various essential training they need to function.

 

From your posts, I infer there are challenges in your sons' Troop Committee. The best way to help get past those challenges is to volunteer, roll up your sleeves, and dig in on a project within the Committee.

 

If you choose to move your son to another Troop, look not only at the program, but also at the support.

 

BTW, since I don't see it here: Please, please encourage your Committee to adopt a "two-signature" rule. That way, there is accountability for the funds being spent, unless both signers are crossing ethical lines.

[Eagle Foot]

Diden't read all of the replies...sorry if I missed this.

 

We use Troop Ledger...by the makers of Troop Master...this generates a report of each item (as long as it is entered). I see know problem with letting any one see the report. If they have a problem...well I just recurited a new committee member.

 

It keeps track of troop dues, fund raisers, etc. We have no secrets and we sertanly don't want folks to think so. If for some reason people think we are spending it wrong...they need to speek up. Our goal is to same money then spend it, save money spend it. We make a Troop budget, we give the Scoutmaster petty cash...we spend the money faster than we get it most times. In the end we are always spending it on the scouts and the troop.

 

Edited by Eagle Foot

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eagle Foot]

Guess I should read more...

 

Troop Dues....we collect a $100 per year...paid either a lump sum or by the calander quarter. If the scout is not present...he still owes the money.

 

If he gets behind by 60 days after the end of a quarter he can't go camping or advance. After 90 days we really try to find out why. After 90 days he and his parents meet with the Scoutmaster, Troop Committee Chairman, and the other key committee members to either resolve the dues or dismiss the scout from the troop.

 

 

Eagle Foot

 

[result1]

Another Question. Can some one tell me or tell me where I can look it up. Do to the fact they could not give us (ME) the information form a fundraiser 4 months ago, and I started to dig a bit deeper in to the troop money. This Committee Chair is also Troop Treasurer which has not provide the Committee any reports of the troop funds except some verbal estimates for the past 3 years plus.

 

Reading the description of the 2 positions. Troop Treasurer serves at the satisfaction of the Committee Chair and the Troop Committee.

 

Would that mean that if the committee members wanted, they could have the Committee Chair appoint someone other then herself?

 

 

Troop Committee Chair (CC) is selected by the Charter Organization Representative (COR) to organize the Troop Committee. Serves at the satisfaction of the COR and Troop Committee.

Reports to: Charter Organization Representative

 

 

Troop Treasurer maintains all troop finances, collects dues and fees, and pays troop bills. Appointed by the Committee Chair and serves at the satisfaction of the Committee Chair and the Troop Committee.

Reports to: Committee Chair

 

[Lisabob]

I think the practical answer is no. Unless you can convince the CC that it is a good idea NOT to be both CC and treasurer, or unless your CO demands that the roles be separate then I don't think you'll succeed in forcing the issue with the CC/treasurer.

 

But good grief, no written report of any kind in THREE YEARS? Are there books of any sort at all? Is the CO involved and if so, are they aware of this issue?

 

It certainly sounds like the CC/treasurer should step down from at least the treasurer's role. But before anybody else takes on the job it would be a good idea to do some sort of audit - on paper, open to the other committee members. It doesn't have to be formal where you hire an outside firm or something but the way you describe the situation, another person would be nuts to take on this job without a serious paper trail to cover themselves with.

 

Last question for now - why is your CC also the treasurer? Is it because he really wants to be? Or because no one else would do it?

 

 

[result1]

 

Last question for now - why is your CC also the treasurer? Is it because he really wants to be? Or because no one else would do it?

 

I really dont know why she is both the CC and treasurer. She has turned down offers from other parents that dont mind helping out on other positions.

 

The Troop Money has never been a question to me as I did not feel it was my business and new to the scouts. And may not have been a question to me now if she could have told the parents about the last fund raisers (Gift of Lights) which was 4 months ago.

 

The summer camp fess should have been paid by 15 May 2007, but I understand that she got an extension till this weekend yard sale. One would think Monday night meeting we all should know how much each parents must pay to have there son go to summer camp. (Yes it will be the very last min and Im sure they will want it by the time the meeting is over). I will see what happens tomorrow night.

 

Now that I have question the troop money, I also have to find out about the Camp Geronimo T-shirts with troop number which we all ready have paid for but never did get a confirmation on the order was placed or not which was due 26 April 2007.

 

I will find out what happens tomorrow night then I will go to the people that charter the troop which may be useless as the connection with the CC and the Charter will be very strong, since she also handles the Cub scouts. She never missed a cub scout meeting which she has 3 or 4 of them a week.

 

But I will voice my concerns with the Charter; the only other options would be the IRS.

 

As far as Troop money (Bookkeeping how hard can it really be?).

Cant be any harder then a persons home budget?

 

Does any one have a list of (Sample of Troop budget Expenses) I dont need figures (Dollar Amounts) as each troop would be different. The Expenses would vary between troops also but would give me some ideal of how to set up a budget on excel and access.

 

[donert]

Money can be a touchy subject.....a CC in our troop thinks he can dictate where the funds are going. He just took some of the funds toward high adventure trips because his sons are are doing high adventure and as SM I don't save any say in the troop funds. Our TC is really screwed up and I am taking measures to correct (or oust) this arrogant CC. I think the whole TC should be abolished because many are husband/wife and are doing dual roles in the troop

[result1]

Well I see, the CC problem is not an isolated to just this troop.

As I said, Last night they finally came out with the $ amount that will be applied to the scouts for summer camp (From the Fund raiser 4 months ago).

 

Then wanted the balance of the money from the parents (So they get payment sent to the Camp) which should have been done a week ago.

 

My son was (PAID between fund raiser and what I already paid), over paid even after applying $40 to my sons camp spending Over paid by $92.00

 

They made a mistake on one scout which would of affected everyone (A little bit) I told them take my over payment and correct the error and spread out the rest where needed.

 

Finally a closer to the summer camp fundraiser from long ago.

There was just no excuse for this; its simple (Old Math).

 

To my surprised the Camp Geronimo T-shirts with troop number was ordered.

 

 

No longer need a Sample of Troop budget found plenty of information on Internet search (Thank you)

 

One more question, if you dont mind

When your troop have a yard sale, does the CC runs it

 

Example: The Yard sale I refer to in previous posting, The Boys was there at 5 am and set up Then sit around doing nothing all day.

 

When people had questions and or wanted to buy something (The CC handle it) other parents SM Committee members in the garage. The CC ran it all. But the boys were there to put the things away.

 

I may be wrong but I totally disagree I think the boys should have not only set up but also answered questions and sold the items when someone want it. The boys should have handle the money and interact with the people that came by.

 

I also think one of the boys could be collecting the weekly dues, handling the money and accounting in the meeting and all fund raisers. (With an adult leader supervising and explaining how to do it and what to look for).

 

Teach the boys which would be better then having the boys do all the work then tell them some of the money is gone!

 

When they say Scouts is a boy run program why are their so many limits of what the boys can do?

 

Thank you all for your input

Thank you for letting me vent

 

 

 

 

[FScouter]

The number one duty of the troop committee chairman is to organize the committee to see that all functions are delegated, coordinated, and completed. (Ref Troop Committee Guidebook). That does not mean for the CC to do those functions himself. Any successful manager in any organization knows you cannot be effective by doing everything yourself. The stories youve related prove that. If the CC is having trouble selecting, recruiting, and motivating committee members, there are BSA resources to help with that. If the CC refuses to perform his most important function, well, the troop has a big problem.

 

The Unit Budget Plan #28-426 is a guide and worksheet the troop treasurer can use to help plan income and spending. Its available for no charge at the Scout office.

[awesome1_in_cc]

As a new Scoutmaster, I have been working with the Troop Committee Chairman to improve our Troops communication, finances, etc. even though these fall out of my realm of responsibility as Scoutmaster. The readers digest versions of these changes are as follows:

 

 

We still have monthly Committee meetings lead by the CC and the financial reports are given out to the committee members.

 

We have added a quarterly Parents meeting led by me (also attended by the CC) where we also distribute high level financial reports, advancement reports for each Scout, updated calendars based on changes from the PLC to the annual calendar, etc.

(The intent of this meeting to COMMUNICATE with the parents on our Troops activities / needs, etc. It also allows us to get feedback from our customers aka the parents and Scouts.

 

 

Our finances are broken down as follows:

 

Each scout pays a $50 fee every February. This covers their re-charter, Boys life, insurance with only a small portion staying with the troop.

 

We have two fundraisers a year, a pancake breakfast in the spring and popcorn in the fall. The Scouts get credit in their account for 20% of their individual total sales for each of these fundraisers. It is clearly spelled out in our Parents guide that this money stays with Troop and can only be used for scouting related expenses as approved by the Troop Committee. We even have a special debit form that has to be filled and signed by the Scout prior to use of these funds.

 

Activity fees are paid on an event by event basis for those who attend.

 

Result1 - I am really concerned with a CC who does not want help from other willing volunteers in their troop. Now I have no ideal what is going on with the money but as a parent I would be really concerned also. While what is going on may not be criminal (if the CC has signing rights then you will have a hard time proving theft of Troop money since he/she has full access to the account) but it sure sounds unethical.

 

Good luck!!

 

[scoutldr]

"When they say Scouts is a boy run program why are their so many limits of what the boys can do?"

 

The only limits are what's in the Guide to Safe Scouting, and the controls that overbearing parents invent. In the example you cited, the yard sale, there is NO reason that the entire event could not have been handled by the boys - even handling and accounting for the money. In fact, in my opinion, sales would have been even better if the boys had been actively engaging the customers. Some people (me) will buy stuff they don't need or get their clean car washed again if the scouts are acting like they're interested.

 

 

[result1]

Just want to take a few min, and say thank you to everyone that responded to my question on Troop money and Troop Flags. I also like to say Good-bye and God bless you all.

 

Fact 1) this troop does not have much commutation and a lot of mis-commutation.

One would think any thing coming from the SM or ASM should be correct and or the same. Most of the time they are not on the same page.

 

The SM told me that the BSA only publish a general guide, every troop is different and he runs this troop.

 

Fact 2) as I said It normally would never cross my mind to question, (Wheres the money).

 

The summer camp fundraiser (not all the money was deposited so the money is gone the Troop roster of who worked when is missing or lost). And I agree with the Committee Chair, just move forward.

 

If they could have figured out how much money will be applied to the scouts summer camp from the funds that was deposited in a timely manner it would have never been an issue.

 

The Committee Chair is also the Treasurer, She told me and some other adults that the Old Scout master did not give her and or deposit all of the money from the fundraiser. Implied that it was gambled away.

 

As it turns out what she tells us is different from what she tells the Chartered Partner. They are under the impression that (He is not an accountant and lost some of the receipts).

 

Why be telling 2 different stories???

 

Fact 3) in most cases its taking 2 years for the scout to become 1st class. Where many other troops try to have them 1st class in the 1st year. And if it truly a boy run troop, following closely the BSA general guide it can be done.

 

Fact 4) there is a difference between a Flag and a flag patch

 

As it turns out I question the Chartered Partner, They are not that involved with the troop function as they have 100% confidence of the Committee Chair and SM. They are only there for legal matters.

 

The Committee Chair and SM, held a committee meeting consisting of (committee Chair and SM) no other committee members were called. (Since I had asked question to the Chartered Partner)

They voted that my son and I would no longer be part of the troop. And my son would not go to summer camp. And they were not willing to refund my money. (Note not the money my son earned at the fundraiser the money I referring to is $200 out of my pocket)

 

I know I would get my money (Plus) back in court, but it did not come to that. The Chartered Partner was willing to give my money back, but was surprised that they made that decision.

We talked a bit, and that is where I learned what Committee Chair tells us is different from what she tells them. (The money was nothing to me It was my son wanted to go to summer camp with the boys that he has gotten to know over the past year.)

 

So you might say I went over there heads, after talking the Chartered Partner and them talking to the SM, they had no problem with me or my son and my son was welcome to come to the summer camp.

 

The Committee chair was not going I had hopes that the SM would be professional and I trusted the other adults that were going, so my son did go on this years summer camp.

 

But any Committee Chair and SM or anyone else that has a disagreement or felt that a parent went over their heads to get answers, decide to talk it out on a 12 year old boy is not fit to be any part of the BSA or any other youth group. Thats my opinion

 

Sounds like other Committee members and parents will be going to the Chartered Partner for answers and concerns, but I will believe that when I see it. And the sad fact is (Its not going to change a thing), I feel bad for the other boys - I will find something else for my son.

 

I have checked out another troop looks very organized

Newsletters handouts they dont hide the funds it looks like the boys do run the troop.

They seam to be learning and having fun.

 

So this troop does have a possibility but Im more inclined to have my son join the civil air patrol. if he wants too, as he knows two other boys in the civil air patrol (CAP)that was in his Boy scout troop, telling him that CAP is a lot better.

 

 

Thank you all and God Bless

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

result1,

 

Thank you for the feedback. So very often, we do not get it . Feedback is a gift, it helps us make sure we are answering your questions.

 

As your post notes, I think you've found this particular Troop to be "just not right" (my own words, not yours). You have to make the choices in the best interests of your own son. and moving to another unit, or even another program, sounds like much less hard work than forcing the wet noodle of making change happen in the old Troop. That, to me, is a sadness.

 

I've been a Soldier for one or two mornings now. I've been a Scout and Scouter not quite as long. My chartered partner not on sponsors a Pack, Troop and Crew, but also a CAP Squadron and youth squadron. There are fundamental differences in the educational bases between Scouting and the Civil Air Patrol:

 

- CAP Squadrons and Youth squadron programs are military/paramilitary in nature. After all, they are establishments of the Department of Defense, as the US Air Force Auxiliary. Educational and instructional methods include military discipline and close order drill. As a Soldier, the teaching point of both these is to instill immediate and willing obedience to orders. Whether an infantry battalion, a squadron of bombers, or a torpedo boat on a firing run, the premise of military discipline is to steel the individuals of a unit to go in harms way and accomplish the mission, no matter the individual consequences. Mutual trust and confidence is a supreme value; the individual is subordinate to the team. CAP also uses an absolute seniority system of "chain of command" for youth leadership. Diversity is of lesser import than unity.

 

- Scouting is designed to develop young men (men and women in Venturing) as self-sufficient, self-reliant, thinking individuals. It melds those individuals into small teams for collective good. It promotes participatory democracy and group decisionmaking, but also promotes leadership and accountability. Diversity and unity are important in nearly equal measure.

 

Wherever your son ends up, I wish him fun, learning, and growth. I wish for you a young man who is ready to take his station in life as he turns into young adulthood.