What do yeh do with the young go-getter?

Beavah · April 29, 2007

What do you do with a boy that has just completed his Life requirements, is waiting on his BOR and is only 12 years old? And before anyone even thinks it, no one has been pushing this boy nor is he getting any special considerations. If anyone has ever read any of Percy K. Fitzhugh's books, just imagine Pee-Wee without the belt axe and fry pan. By the way, in this boy's spare time, he's a fully functional Den Chief working on the national award as well.

I think yeh take a good look at your program and how Advancement-driven it is. Seems like a boy doin' this is really pretty tightly focused on only one of eight methods, and I have to wonder what's happenin' with the rest. Is advancement your only form of recognition?

I love these young rascals. Rather than let 'em race through requirements, I think we should respond the way any Gifted and Talented education program does, eh? Encourage 'em to "dig deeper". Give 'em the hardest first aid scenario you can think of. Don't just make 'em tie one lashing or a simple camp gadget - make 'em lash together a full-out fort with working drawbridge. Not just plan and cook one weekend's meals - challenge 'em do a 4-star camp gourmet job.

Yah, yah, da "can't add to requirements" crowd is probably goin' nuts about now. But no kid just wants the badge. They want our approval, eh? And the approval of their peers. That's a much more powerful form of recognition. Doin' the lashing fort is far more cool than just gettin' First Class fast.

With the young guns, I think yeh need to adjust the challenge to their ability level. Make 'em strong and deep, not fast and shallow.

Beavah

Chippewa29 · April 29, 2007

Beavah-

Nice string of topics lately. As for those young kids, I was one of them. Back in the 80's, you didn't have to do ten events before becoming first class. You only had to be in for about six months. I got to be friends with the guys a year ahead of me (all First or Second Class when I joined) and raced to try and catch them. Of course, they scrambled to try and keep me from catching them.

I made Life in 16 months (minimum time back then). My parents didn't pressure me nor did any adult in the troop. I just had some people that inspired me and Scouting fit my personality very well. When I hit life, I wasn't even 12 1/2 yet. There were three guys I chased. The oldest one, who was 13 1/2 at the time, had gotten his life about six months before me. The other two were 13 or 13 1/2 and got their Life rank within a month of me. What happened from there is where the story gets interesting.

A month after getting my Life, all four of us went through our Ordeal with the OA. I had already been SPL (yes, we were a very young troop) and was currently a PL. I chose to get active in the OA, got elected to a leadership position, and found some older guys to mentor me. Of the other three guys, one transferred to an Explorer post less than a year later and the the other two over the next year or so dropped out of Scouts without getting their Eagle awards. One never graduated from high school and the other managed to get in trouble as well.

What I'm trying to say is that if you have a young Scout that is burning it up, then find a new way to challenge him. For me, being active in the OA was a great way to expand my horizons and get a bigger picture of what was out there. In addition, it kept me humble. I realized that I was a big fish in a small pond and there were other guys who were going to teach me a lot if I kept my mouth shut and listened.

I credit the OA for really instilling a love of Scouting in me and probably keeping me active all the way through my youth. If you don't have some Scouts in your troop that can mentor this young man, then hopefully, you can find another avenue to keep his interest and also keep him humble.

Stosh · April 29, 2007

"I think yeh take a good look at your program and how Advancement-driven it is. Seems like a boy doin' this is really pretty tightly focused on only one of eight methods, and I have to wonder what's happenin' with the rest. Is advancement your only form of recognition?

On the other thread I merely responded to your question, but now with a continuation in the accusatory tone you began with, I'll continue the comments.

Boy DOB: 08/12/94

Joined Troop: 02/27/05 (Yes he was only 10 1/2 years old but he was Arrow of Light, rules specifically state this is an acceptable procedure in the BSA)

Scout: 04/12/05

Tenderfoot: 08/30/05

Second Class: 02/14/06

First Class: 04/04/06

Star: 09/26/06 (Yes that is 4 months as a First Class scout)

Life: 04/24/07 (Yes that is 6 months as a Star scout)

APL: 03/01/05 - 04/18/06 - NBP full year

Scribe: 04/18/06 - 10/18/06

ASPL/APL: 10/18/06 - present - Honor's Patrol

Den Chief: 10/18/06 - present

So in light of the question.... Yes it is easily possible for this young man to have obtained the rank of Life at age 12 and still be 3 months shy of his 13th birthday.

One might also note that the quest for advancement at the expense of others does not apply in this situation either. Except for his first month of getting organized into the NBP, he has held at least one POR throughout his scouting career.

He has attended 2 weeks of summer camp and has gotten 6 merit badges from that experience and picked up another six at camporees, and other locally held merit badge opportunities.

Since joining scouts has attendance at meetings is 71%, his attendance at other functions is 75% and his attendance at fundraising events is 100%.

His "low" attenance percentage at the meetings is because of his commitment to the den chief responsibilities at the cub pack. He has permission to put his DC responsibilities higher than his attendance at a regular meeting.

As far as I can tell, he's a straight-A student at school, is involved heavily in his church and occasionally will participate in school sports.

He could not participate in this winter's Winter Survival program with the rest of his patrol because he was not old enough. He could not particpate as a volunteer in the Duck Unlimited Festival last year because he wasn't old enough, and yes this scout can tie the Turk's Head knot to make a woggle, he knows his knots as well as I do, and at the last campout his menu (he cooked for the whole weekend because he wanted to try out camp cooking for the patrol) consisted of sawmill bisquets and gravy for breakfast (all dutch oven cooked/baked), grilled cheese sandwiches and tomato soup for lunch, mashed potatoes with hamburger/onion gravy and brown sugar glazed carrots for supper. The next morning it was scrambled eggs, bacon and hashbrowns. At the fund raisers, he is one of just a few boys that will sign up for ALL shifts.

So, in fact Beavah, his scout is one step ahead of you and your suggestions already. So now where do you expect him to go? And because I do not know who reads these posts, I cannot say whether or not the troop elected him to the OA last meeting or not.

So there just might be some Walter Harris kind of kids out there that make Scouting a priority in their busy schedules and who challenge the adults to try and keep up with them. These people really do exist and there doesn't have to be an alterior motive, or questionable pratices on the part of troops, or inappropriate focuses, or are doing something wrong to produce such scouts. They just come around once in a while and if given the appropriate opportunities, just set the bar a little higher for the rest of the boys.

And as far as doing something wrong all the time, there are also assumptions that maybe these scouts are the way they are because some troops are doing something right instead.

Next weekend is our spring camporee. I'm in charge of knots for the campwide activities in the afternoon. I was told I could ask for volunteers to act as my staff to help me out. I'll have about 125 boys passing through my station throughout the afternoon. I turned to my SPL and the Honor Patrol and said, "Discuss it among yourselves, but I need staff to help with the station and if you would rather help me than participate in the activities let me know." About 45 minutes later the SPL came and said, "You have your staff for the afternoon" (This is a 15 year old) and went back to working with his patrol.

Sometimes one can honestly assume that there are those out there that are doing it right. How many times have we burned out boys from the challenges of adulthood by never giving them the chance to "run with the big dogs" now and then. The older boys can't babysit the NBP every week and not get totally bored out of their skulls.

Why is it that it is assumed in the negative and never in the positive?

I know we're not the only ones out there doing it right and I think it's unfair to assume or suggest otherwise or to even leave an accusatory tone to one's comments on a forum.

Stosh

GernBlansten · April 30, 2007

My brother was one of these go getters. Back in the mid 60s, he charged through the BSA ranks, ultimately getting his Eagle at 13.5 years. My parents didn't push him, I know, they didn't push me either. He did it entirely on his own initiative. After his Eagle, he got active in OA and moved up to Brotherhood. By 15 he was pretty much done with Boy Scouts. Back then they had the Drum and Bugle Corps and he got active with them through HS. His drive was apparent throughout his life. Graduated HS a year early, undergraduate in 3 years. Masters in 1.5. Was the youngest CPA in our state's history. Became a full partner in his multinational firm by 30. Retired at 50 a multi-millionaire. Since retirement he has earned another masters in theology and is now working on his doctorate in international business.

So looking back on his style and accomplishments, do you think him getting his Eagle at 13.5 was extraordinary or due to a flawed program?

kenk · April 30, 2007

As with any other Scout, we should facilitate their learning and advancement and celebrate their successes.

Not all Scouts are the same. We certainly shouldn't try to add artificial requirements to try to slow down the go-getters.

theysawyoucomin' · April 30, 2007

Has he heard a loon call from a remote lake?

Been scared on a COPE course and made it through while thinking under pressure?

Backpacked another mile after thinking he just couldn't walk one more step?

He can give first aid for a blister. Has he actually ever EARNED one?

Paddled a canoe all day and enjoyed the fellowship of the group around a campfire? Has he portaged a canoe a mile and a quarter around the most beautiful rapids in the state?

Caught a wild trout on a fly he tied?

Has he broke a clay pigeon in search of the shotgunning merit badge?

Been amazed at the amount of black powder smoke coming from a muzzleloader and reflected on how much smoke there was on a Rev War battlefield?

Made a quinzee and slept overnight?

Learned how to save a person from an overturned boat in the middle of a lake?

Been on a pair of snowshoes for a couple days in a row, walking over three feet of snow?

Will one of his Patrol members remember him the rest of his life for the leadership he provided on a rainsoaked camping trip?

Stood on the side of a marsh and really listened to the call of the wood duck, splash of the muskrat working the early shift. Enjoyed the silence in the pre dawn only to have it broken by the racket of 20 Canada honkers moving to the cornfields.

Most of all has he built lifelong friendships with his patrol members while sharing these experiences?

Has he talked a kid into getting out of his sleeping bag, to get packed up and on the road when the kid can't walk another step?

Is the lad Charles Kurault or Jeff Gordon?

He is a Den Chief. His stock goes up tremendously in my opinion.

He is doing everything he needs to. My assumption is that you are running a proper program. He is getting the meat and potatoes.

None of the things I mentioned is required nor is the woggle tying.

If you think I'm wrong fine let him go. He might be standing on the finish line wondering why he ran so fast, and wondering what he missed.

McDonald's serves food and so does your Mom---- which place has the intangibles that are the spice of life, that we hold so dear?

In a microwave society let him make memories from scratch.(This message has been edited by uz2bnowl)

Beavah · April 30, 2007

Not all Scouts are the same. We certainly shouldn't try to add artificial requirements to try to slow down the go-getters.

Yah, not to slow 'em down, eh? To challenge them! To make their experience richer and deeper and more meaningful, the way the Owl and the Chippewa describe!

I'm a firm believer in inspirin' each boy to live up to his full potential.

A strong young lad may do Eagle-and-out at a young age as Gern suggests; or maybe a strong young lad can be given a host of fun, richer, and deeper challenges that keep him in to 18 and an Eagle award that's truly stunning.

If we don't do that, then we have to think about what the next challenge is. Maybe OA, maybe Venturing, maybe Sea Scouts. Maybe a Venture Patrol or a special troop service. We shouldn't give up on the lad because he turns 14 and Eagle. Any way we do it, we should be there with the level of challenge the boy needs to continue to develop and grow.

B

[jblake, that wasn't my comment on the other thread you responded to. That was someone else, eh? No accusatory tone intended, just a genuine friendly answer. I'd encourage yeh to examine your program, and figure out where/how you can bring this lad and other lads to the right level of challenge. Doesn't have to be through the Advancement Method. Can be any of 'em that holds the key for each boy.](This message has been edited by Beavah)

Stosh · April 30, 2007

"If we don't do that, then we have to think about what the next challenge is. Maybe OA, maybe Venturing, maybe Sea Scouts. We shouldn't give up on the lad because he turns 14 and Eagle. Any way we do it, we should be there with the level of challenge the boy needs to continue to develop and grow."

He's only 12 years old! He's been in scouts for only a couple of years, and you seem to be promoting the falacy that once one achieves Eagle, life as a Boy Scout is over. So many boys wait until the last minute, come in under the wire with their projects and age out before their parents have a chance to organize an Eagle Court of Honor. I never said I was planning on giving up when this boy reaches Eagle. As a matter of fact the agreement each boy makes when he voluntarily accepts membership in the Honor's Patrol is he stays in the program until he turns 18 years of age. It is the goal of this patrol to have all 8 members at Eagle rank at the same time, a goal the boys seem to think would be kinda nice. It is also expected that regardless of rank, the boy will hold a POR and be active with the boys and that doesn't mean they are just going to be a paper patrol of JASM's either. There's nothing in the "rules and regs" that says a Cub den can't have an Eagle DC is there? Maybe the NBP who has an Eagle PL will learn what real leadership is all about by watching an expert. Maybe if the troop QM was an Eagle, there really won't be a total mess in the troop trailer. Maybe if they were all Eagles that stuck around after their Eagle COH's one could have a truly boy-led troop. Everyone has to have a dream, don't they?

Stosh

Beavah · April 30, 2007

He's only 12 years old! He's been in scouts for only a couple of years, and you seem to be promoting the falacy that once one achieves Eagle, life as a Boy Scout is over.

Nah, that was Gern, eh? He was describin' how his brother, another go-getter, went and got Eagle, and then dropped out to pursue other challenges. I agree with Gern, though, that is a risk for kids/parents/programs that are highly advancement focused. We do see plenty of Eagle-and-outs in troops. Don't you think so?

Doesn't mean we can't hold 'em as Eagle Scouts by providing them with more challenges based on the other methods of scoutin', just like you suggest. I'm just thinkin' that it might be a better strategy to put those other methods into play earlier on.

I remember a district AC braggin' to me at one point that he encouraged the boys in his troop to earn Eagle as quick as possible, "so that then they could have fun." I personally believe that's the wrong approach. Same with challengin' the young gun go-getters. In my opinion, it's better in both cases to incorporate the fun and the extra challenge into the advancement journey, rather than puttin' it on afterward.

Let's stop and hear what ideas some others have, eh?

Beavah

Lisabob · April 30, 2007

With respect Stosh, I think the way you framed the question "What do you do with..." invites the sorts of responses you seem to have gotten.

Your program, as described in this thread and previous threads, sounds wonderful. Keep up the great work! And my answer to your initial query would be, you introduce the boy to palms (if he's interested) and as long as he continues to grow, mature, be challenged, and have fun, you don't worry about the fact that he earned Eagle at a young age. There are plenty of other things he could be doing in the troop besides rank advancement. You have a solid high adventure program (once he's old enough!), right? As others have said, and as you yourself seem to agree, not everything in scouts has to be about advancement. And just because he is an Eagle doesn't mean he has learned everything you have to teach him about leadership, or about scout skill either.

Eamonn · April 30, 2007

"Is it mathematically possible? "

Yes I was the person who asked!!

There was no accusatory tone intended.

I was just being lazy. I didn't want to look it up and do the math.

Maybe the question might be or should be what happens to the young go getter after he has gone and got?

In our area we still have Junior High Schools. Nearly all of these are not in the same buildings as the High Schools. It seems to me that most of the Lads who are Scouts seem to do well (whatever that might mean?) Until they move up to the High School.

With so much more going on and with so many more commitments the older a Lad becomes the harder it becomes for him to find time to meet the goals he may have set.

I have heard and I don't know how true it is or isn't? That the average age of an Eagle Scout is now 14 years old.

I'm OK with that. If a Scout has met the requirements I don't see any reason why he shouldn't receive the Eagle Scout rank.

My big concerns are what happens next?

In the thread a few weeks back I posted that I'd like to see the age groups of the sections changed.

While of course I read about Troops that do offer wonderful programs for older Scouts, sadly it's not happening in the area where I Scout.

Add to this that again in my area Venturing isn't working.

This means that the Troops are doing the same old same old year after year. So without some other interest the boys become bored and quit.

For OJ the OA was the other interest, I have known other Scouts who have got involved in JLTC (As it was then.) Some Lads are happy to remain in just to follow some activity that maybe the Troop offers which he can't find elsewhere.

My problem as a Sea Scouter seems to be that many of the Boy Scouts who do join the Ship wait until they are 16 to do so, this doesn't give us much time to get a lot of stuff done before they go off to college. We also spend a lot of time going over and teaching skills that I would expect a Scout to know.

I'd dearly love to have 14 year old Scouts join the Ship.

So far not one Boy Scout who has joined the Ship seems to be able to tie even the basic knots and the knowledge they have about using compasses and reading even simple maps and charts leaves a lot to be desired.

This of course might not be the fault of the Scout. It seems to me that fewer and fewer leaders have the skills, so they can't pass on something that they don't have.