How dedicated are your scouts?

[GernBlansten]

Standing at the back of the meeting room, I'm scanning our scouts and trying to measure how dedicated each are to the program. The way I measured it was whether I thought the scout would be here if mom/dad didn't make them come. When I got to last scout, my total was about 10% were really dedicated to the program and wanted to be there. The rest, well, lets just say that scouting is just another activity and they could take it or leave it. I'm not saying their parents drag them to the meetings and outtings, but if left to their own initiatives, they wouldn't go.

My own son was pretty gungho his first years as a boy scout, but now in his 3rd year, if I don't put my uniform on on meeting nights and tell him the car leaves in 5, he wouldn't care. I don't have to drag him kicking and screaming, he just wouldn't care if we missed it. Is my impression warped? Or is this just the way young teenagers are nowadays?

[local1400]

Yeah I here ya Gern. Sometimes the apathy can be disheartening to watch. All we can do is put on the best program and hope we can continue to interest and challenge them. This is kind of what I was leaning towards when I started that BE PREPARED thread awhile back. Do they really think of the Scout Oath and Law? OTOH, have some really good kids ( more than a few from single Mom type households) who are desparate for that adventure and being with the "guys". Those that want the program I will do what it takes to make it worth their time. Things have improved for our unit recently with those hungry new Scouts who are eager to learn and the older ones ready to teach them. Good luck Gern, because just one "thanks" will lift your spirits.

[Stosh]

What do you do with a boy that has just completed his Life requirements, is waiting on his BOR and is only 12 years old? And before anyone even thinks it, no one has been pushing this boy nor is he getting any special considerations. If anyone has ever read any of Percy K. Fitzhugh's books, just imagine Pee-Wee without the belt axe and fry pan. By the way, in this boy's spare time, he's a fully functional Den Chief working on the national award as well.

[Lisabob]

Gern I don't think it is only the program we offer, I think it is also part of being a typical teenage boy. I've noticed that, if left to their own devices, my son and most of his friends would far prefer to just "hang out" somewhere, not doing anything at all, or to be alone (together) in their rooms with various electronic gadgets, playing out a virtual existence. It isn't that they don't enjoy the stuff they are involved in, but I think it is a matter of exploring control - over one's time, over one's interests (developing them or not as the case may be), over one's predilections to slothfulness...

 

We have an expectation that our son will be involved in *something* outside the house. He's an only child, spends too much time alone or with adults as it is. We don't ever have the kind of harried, over-scheduled life that you hear about some people living, but we do want him interacting with other kids and doing something meaningful that he enjoys. So far that has been scouts (and other activities when he's interested). But sure, if we were willing to let him sit in his room and play game boy every night instead, he'd probably do it. Not an option though.

 

By the way I'm picking up my son from a NCIS-themed camp-out in a couple of hours. They had a bunch of guys from the local & state police and the local guard base work with them to set it up. Last year they worked with police dogs and did fingerprint and DNA lab analysis. This year it was more about collecting evidence of a crime along the trail, but really cool stuff. The day before the camp-out my son was moaning about how he just felt like staying home (too bad, he'd already signed up and paid, I said). I'm willing to bet that all I'm going to hear about for the next few days will be how awesome the camp-out was though!

 

 

[Eamonn]

"What do you do with a boy that has just completed his Life requirements, is waiting on his BOR and is only 12 years old?"

Is it mathematically possible?

 

GernBlansten

I have a problem (Yes I take ownership of it) with words like : Commitment, dedication and maybe even loyalty.

Maybe in part because I'm dumb enough to keep asking why?

I have read accounts of early Scout Troops in the London area.

I'm not that old!! But even when I was a kid the streets were in many ways our play ground. Of course that was when there was still places to park your car. (My father was the very proud owner of the second car on our street!!)

The boys in our immediate area seemed to form groups and hang out and play together. The groups somehow seemed to with no preplanned organization group together in age groups. My brother who is four years and two days older than I wouldn't be seen dead with kids my age.

As kids our parents send us out to play. We played with each other, fought with each other, ate in each others homes and did our best to avoid letting the nosy old Ladies see what mischief we were getting into for fear that they would tell our parents what we were up to.

This was in the 1960's.

I'm sure when Scouting first started that there was even less for kids to do. Having a national hero like BP to look up to and copy must have been a lot of fun.

My after school options were limited to joining the Boys Club, where the main activity was boxing.Or the Scouts. I don't like people hitting me!! So the Scouts got me!!

With so few choices being committed or loyal wasn't hard.

How good we are at what we do seems to play a big part in how dedicated we are at doing it. Kind of a catch 22 as in most cases the more dedicated we are the better we get at it. I was never really dedicated to playing the trumpet, I wasn't very good so I quit. In part due to the fact that my Dad was fed up hearing the only song I ever mastered "God Save The Queen" He was a very proud Irish man!!

I have at times looked at the Scouts in Troops I have served. I have asked myself why are they there? Why do they keep coming back?

OJ really liked the OA.

I think in part because he got to go by himself. It wasn't a Troop activity. He got to go up to camp and hang out with a group of kids his age with very minimal adult supervision. Over time members of the group took on leadership roles and he went along with them. Over all he did a good job, he did a lot for the Lodge, took the training's offered. As he found out more, he did more, got better at what he did and seemed to enjoy it more.

I've had some Lads who seem to appear as soon as they heard the lock in the Scout Hall open. Many because life at home wasn't very nice and they needed a place to hang out. Someplace safe where they knew they would be welcome.

Some Lads find something in the program that they enjoy and become good at and latch on to Scouting as we are the only place that offers that something. It used to be camping, but now just about every youth group does some sort of camping.

Some Scouts really want to please their parents. They start off working on advancement and merit badges to please their parents, some as they get older grow out of the need to please their parents and start to do their own thing, which might or might not include Scouts and Scouting?

Some Scouts are a little like me. After a while doing what you do becomes a habit. I know that when HWMBO first became ill, being home on Thursday nights was something I wasn't used too. Not going to R/T and not attending meetings made me feel like I was missing out on something.

I own some properties which are rented. I do my best to keep them in good repair, recently one needed a complete new bathroom, the plumbing wasn't good when I bought the place over ten years back, while I was spending I thought I'd go for it and replace the roof and update the kitchen. The guy who lives there has been there for ten years. He wasn't very happy with my plans. He had become used to things being as they were and I think he was scared that the changes might in some way harm or hurt him. He asked if I was kicking him out? As if I somehow blamed him for the things that weren't right! I think maybe he was worried that the rent would go up? But I also think he had got used to being where he was at and doing things the way he had been doing them.

Is fear, habit, lack of choice,the desire to please others? The same thing as loyalty and dedication?

Eamonn

 

 

[gwd-scouter]

I've watched varying degrees of disinterest in our Scouts over the years. Seems the new guys are mostly all gung ho about Scouting. The older they get, the more they display an attitude of rather being somewhere else.

 

In our troop now, we have eight active guys. We have a 17 year old, almost Eagle, serving as a Den Chief so we don't see him at meetings, but he does attend campouts about half the time. He lost interest a few years ago when he became a Life Scout, but a year and a half ago decided to run for SPL, served in that position for a year, and got recharged about Scouting.

 

Our 15 year old SPL dropped out of Scouts a couple of years ago from another troop and rejoined in our troop just last year. He is on fire and is doing a great job as our SPL. He actually thinks about Scouts between Monday's - truthfully the only one in our Troop that does, I think.

 

Then we have a 14 year old Star Scout (my son) about to have his BOR for Life, also served as a Den Chief this past year, who loves everything about Scouting, but really doesn't think about it Monday to Monday.

 

Next, 14 year old that just joined our Troop last summer. Having his BOR for 2nd class next week and is almost finished with 1st class requirements - this is the Scout you all know that actually has read his Scout handbook and knows the requirements he's done and what he needs to do next. You know the one, shows up at a meeting or campout, handbook in hand, and says "can I get signed off on this, I just did it on the last campout."

 

We have three Scouts that joined our Troop last May after crossing over from Webelos. Two went to summer camp with us last year, one did not. The Scout that did not go to summer camp is present at every meeting and goes on every campout. Of the two that went to summer camp with us: one is a drop in Scout and the type that always has an excuse about why he doesn't have his handbook, uniform, didn't show up, etc. etc.; the other I just can't quite figure out yet. He is the most lazy kid I've met and just when I think I KNOW he wouldn't sign up for the hiking trip, he shows up!

 

Then we have our newest Scout that just joined in March. Already poking his handbook in someone's face asking, didn't I just do that? Can I get signed off.

 

Of course, these are the Scouts that remain with our Troop right now. We've been larger and smaller - up to 16 Scouts at one point, as few as five at another. The guys that just didn't want to be there, the guys that would rather spend a weekend playing video games than giving an outdoor experience a try, the guys whose parents basically forced them to do Scouting - they come and go.

[Beavah]

This varies a lot by kid and by troop, eh?

 

Da best troops I know, the kids are there by choice. They drive themselves. They bike in. They participate right through age 18 and then become ASMs and participate for as long as they're in town.

 

But within each troop, there's always a range. And it always helps to have a supportive (but not totally pushy) mom and dad.

 

Boys are funny critters, too. We think of 'em as adventurous, but that's not really true. They are very cautious about participatin' in things they don't know or may not be "good" at. It's really tough on 'em socially to go out on that limb and not perform well the first time. If we're not sensitive to that, we can mistake it for apathy or laziness or disinterest. I figure 8 times out of ten when an adult talks about teen apathy or lack of commitment, that's the real cause. Adults not understandin'.

 

Takes some real skill with the Adult Association method to get through that. Get to know boys, try to gently encourage and provide opportunities that get 'em over that reluctance. Works way better individually or very small groups, where the social "performance fear" isn't present. True for first years. True for older boys goin' into leadership or high adventure. True all the time.

 

Dat's why they need us one hour a week, eh? Not for regulations and supervision, but for encouragement.

 

[Stosh]

"What do you do with a boy that has just completed his Life requirements, is waiting on his BOR and is only 12 years old?"

Is it mathematically possible?

 

Boy DOB: 08/12/94

Joined Troop: 02/27/05 (Yes he was only 10 1/2 years old but he was Arrow of Light, rules specifically state this is an acceptable procedure in the BSA)

Scout: 04/12/05

Tenderfoot: 08/30/05

Second Class: 02/14/06

First Class: 04/04/06

Star: 09/26/06 (Yes that is 4 months as a First Class scout)

Life: 04/24/07 (Yes that is 6 months as a Star scout)

 

APL: 3/01/05 - 04/18/06 - NBP full year

Scribe: 4/18/06 - 10/18/06

ASPL/APL: 10/18/06 - present - Honor's Patrol

Den Chief: 10/18/06 - present

 

So in light of the question.... Yes it is easily possible for this young man to have obtained the rank of Life at age 12 and still be 3 months shy of his 13th birthday.

 

One might also note that the quest for advancement at the expense of others does not apply in this situation either. Except for his first month of getting organized into the NBP, he has held at least one POR throughout his scouting career.

 

[GernBlansten]

The newest, youngest scouts seem to be the most dedicated. As they grow older, or perhaps its just because more is expected of them, they wander from the program and the responsibilities to run one. Sure a few shine and take the ball, but the majority of them, IMHO, are there because mom and dad dropped them off. We strive for boy led, but I'm afraid, if you don't have a couple of go-getters, you will become adult led just to survive. We are lacking on the go-getter metric right now.

 

Perhaps its just my enthusiasm I had when I went through training is waining too. Perhaps its just getting to me that its so much work just to get the boys to take some initiative to plan a simple campout. Perhaps its watching them fail when they don't follow through with their commitments that takes the wind out of my sails. On the 4th anniversity as an adult leader, I'm feeling as though its all for naught. I'll keep showing up and driving my son to meetings and outings until he gets his Eagle, then leave it up to him to continue. I've got plenty other things to keep me busy.

[Stosh]

The newest, youngest scouts seem to be the most dedicated.

 

>> They haven't figured out the situation as of yet. There's a lot of promise and potential being touted in the beginning.

 

As they grow older, or perhaps its just because more is expected of them, they wander from the program and the responsibilities to run one.

 

>> or they haven't been trained, encouraged, developed, to take on leadership because it really isn't being offered without strings attached. The adults call the shots and keep the boys from failing.

 

Sure a few shine and take the ball, but the majority of them, IMHO, are there because mom and dad dropped them off.

 

>> Mom and Dad are the leaders then. The kid is just following along the parental directives. Why is it that so many scouters can never seem to figure this out? They show token leadership when it comes to their project, but the true leadership they are supposed to be developing is still in the hands of those adults around them making sure they don't fail.

 

We strive for boy led, but I'm afraid, if you don't have a couple of go-getters, you will become adult led just to survive.

 

>> if the boys don't step up and take over, the adults will have to continue leading. Boys know this and as long as some adult's going to spoon feed them, they'll just follow along.

 

We are lacking on the go-getter metric right now.

 

>> They are there, but no one's going to step up and challenge the adult led troop...

 

Perhaps its just my enthusiasm I had when I went through training is waining too.

 

>> if what you are getting as a result of your efforts is not what you expect, then do something different. Anything different will produce different results.

 

Perhaps its just getting to me that its so much work just to get the boys to take some initiative to plan a simple campout.

 

>> getting the boys to do anything is an attempt to lead.

 

Perhaps its watching them fail when they don't follow through with their commitments that takes the wind out of my sails.

 

>> Sounds like you are the only one with the investment in the program, and you take it personal when the boys don't do as directed. Does this sound like boy-led?

 

On the 4th anniversity as an adult leader, I'm feeling as though its all for naught.

 

>> What are you doing to develop leadership? Anything? If it ain't working try something else. Work with the boys, they're the ones not getting leadership training.

 

I'll keep showing up and driving my son to meetings and outings until he gets his Eagle, then leave it up to him to continue.

 

>> Sounds like he's expected follow your directive until he has gotten the prize and then, and only then will you allow him to call the shots. And if you son doesn't want Eagle? If it's not as important to him as it is to you?

 

I've got plenty other things to keep me busy.

 

>> You very directly point out exactly the problems most troops face when dealing with the lack of leadership development in the boys. Surely everyone of them learns that if they do not take the reins and stand around long enough some adult will keep them from failing. After all they're the one's running the real program anyway.

 

You haven't identified anything that a basic course in group dynamics and leadership development wouldn't rectify.

 

GernBlansten: I hope you realize that I'm not trying to personally put you on the spot, but you give the classic response of so many scouters and reiterate the litany of defeat so many of them are frustrated with. I've been there and almost quit scouting a hundred times. When I got over my little pity party and got back with the boys, I began to realize my service to them was in working myself out of a job and allowing them the opportunity to grow up and be leaders. I can't make them grow up, or be leaders, or anything they don't want to do. I can only give them the opportunity and encourage them in their choices. Help them to own the program for themselves. :^)

 

 

Stosh

 

[scoutldr]

I think it's the way kids are being raised. Back in my day, in the summer we were kicked out of the house at 8 am, and didn't return until dark. It was up to us to make our own fun. We HAD to take initiative and find things to do, otherwise we would just sit and stare at each other all day. Today, kids have "handlers" (parents) who schedule their time, make sure they get everything they want, and even do the work for them when they get overwhelmed, lest they experience diminished self-esteem. (witness a recent Eagle project performed entirely by the Mom). So when they get to scouts, and are expected to take over and lead, it's a foreign concept. THey show up at the meeting, and sit and wait for the next 15 minutes of entertainment. During BOR, I ask what they don't like...90% of the time, "boring meetings" is mentioned. When I explain to them, that the person who should fix that is in the mirror, I get the blank stare...rather than conform to the boy-led concept, which doesn't fit what they've been conditioned to expect, they would rather drop out. It does not compute and makes them uncomfortable.

[GernBlansten]

Scoutldr, you hit the nail on the head. Our kids don't know how to self entertain. 150+ cable channels, video games, adult led sports keep these kids entertained from dawn to dusk with little initiative on their own part. In my youth, a house was just a place to sleep in, on school nights.

 

We just had a spring snow storm that took out power for 2 days. I just giggled when the kids expected me to keep them entertained. By the end of the outtage, they figured out some of what has been lost. Of course, once power was restored, they fell back into their old lifestyles. Maybe the Amish have something there.

 

Blake: Our troop offers bi-annual JLT. All PORs must attend. They have fun, but it doesn't spark the fire. We follow up with them, but they consistantly fall short of our expectations. I thought we had built an environment to give every scout the opportunity to excel as a leader. I must be wrong because none are taking advantage of it. I think its time for someone else to give it their best shot.

[Stosh]

GernBlansten: I disagree. At least you see the problem. Obviously JLT isn't working, but that doesn't mean one can go through the motions and still not abducate the reins to the kids.

 

I constantly drive at the kids, "What do YOU want to be doing?" "Where do YOU want to go?" and the open the doors of opportunity. If they want to go to BWCA, the standard answer is, "Great, I want to go along, when do we leave?" Always leave the responsibility AND authority in the hands of the kids.

 

"10 day forcast on the Weather Channel says this weekend is going to be sunny and warm. We should be going camping. Who's up for a campout?" Which is quickly followed by "Where do YOU want to go!"

 

Don't rely on the guys with the elected POR patches. Let the nobodies have a chance to step up to the game. 2 Leaders, 4 boys, 3 canoes and it can happen.....

 

They don't need to be the trained JLT who make the plans, how about the 4 boys in the NBP that need a campout for advancement? Can't they plan out a menu, make arrangements and knock out some quality time with each other around a campfire someplace? ANY PLACE?

 

"I'm going to be dragging out my Dutch ovens on Saturday to do some baking. Anyone want in on it?"

 

"Got my bike out, I'm thinking about heading up the bike trail for a day of camping. Any takers?"

 

"I wonder if my canoe is still in good shape this spring. Need to get it wet, do some fishing."

 

Drop these "bomb" opportunities into the laps of the various kids until you get a taker. Help them to develop the idea and take ownership. Then go and have a good time.

 

GernBlansten, you are trained to run a troop, but are you able to train the boys to do it? That's the key. You have the best resources in the world to do this, you are just underestimating yourself, big time!

 

I have only 3 rules when it comes to scouting.

 

1) Be safe

2) Look and act like a Scout

3) Have fun

 

If a boy suggests something, anything, that doesn't break any of those rules, it's fair game for an activity.

 

Stosh

[EagleInKY]

"90% of the time, "boring meetings" is mentioned. When I explain to them, that the person who should fix that is in the mirror, I get the blank stare...rather than conform to the boy-led concept, which doesn't fit what they've been conditioned to expect, they would rather drop out. It does not compute and makes them uncomfortable. "

 

I had the exact conversation with a scout six months ago when he dropped out. He was the oldest, most mature and possibly most respected scout in the troop. Yet he could not get the handle on the idea that he could change things. He constantly waited for the adults to make things happen.

 

 

Stosh -

 

I and other leaders have thrown the "I'm going hiking this weekend if anyone's up for it?".. I'm going down to look at places to backpack this fall if anyone's interested.... I'm.... I get the same blank stares that came from the lad I just spoke about.

 

And, the best part is (and this fits exactly into what the other posters are saying), the excuse we get 99% of the time is "I don't know what my parent's have planned this weekend".

[ajmako]

>> The newest, youngest scouts seem to be the most dedicated.