saluting the flag

[OldGreyEagle]

Local, I guess it depends if the scout is truly disruptive and disrespectful because he wills it or if his behavior is disruptive and he appears disrespectful because he has ADD.

 

 

[FScouter]

Disruptive or not, does that justify pounding on a dead carcass?

[dan]

Every flag ceremony I have ever read have said that the color guard, at least the ones carrying the flags do not say the pledge, they should stand at attention with both hands on the flag pole while the pledge is being said, after the pledge they should take one step back, salute the flag and walk away briskly after being dismissed. Have I been viewing military flag ceremonies that we should not be using in scouting?

 

In my sons troop the flag is brought up through the ranks, scouts are lined up on both sides of the flag, as the flag passes we all turn to watch the flag, this does not feel comfortably to me, it feels awkward turning when the flag passes. It seems it would work better facing where the flag will be when it is posted.

[Beavah]

Yah, local1400, sometimes it helps if yeh just give the lad something to do. Like put him in the color guard and make him carry the flag. Then his mind has somethin' to focus on. He won't do the best job, but he'll do a fine job.

 

Planting an older scout that he respects next to him, and teachin' him some tricks like hooking his thumb in his pocket and such can help, too. Especially watch to make sure other "easily distractable" scouts aren't close by.

 

In addition, if a boy is really this bad in terms of attention, yeh need to have a conversation with the parents. That level of inattention is no doubt affecting other areas of his life negatively, and that feedback is important. They need to pass that information along to his psych pros for changes in his treatment regimen.

 

 

[oldman]

Thanks folks,

Just as when I posted before, the replies cover a wide range and are all helpful. Our opening ceremony begins with a flag already in position and the boys crowded forwards away from the folding chairs sometimes to within two feet of the flag. So those farthest from the flag and on the front would not easily see it if they faced forward. And so when everyone faces the flag, they are at different angles. I can see that backing up would help both. On the other hand, I've noticed at summer camp the last several years some scouts and scouters face ahead and some face the flag.

 

I suppose jblake's comic description is the default position,with instruction added.

 

Oldman

[acco40]

What is a color guard? I was taught that the color guard does NOT carry the colors (flag). The flag bearer(s) carries the colors and the individuals to his left and right, who are not carrying colors (flags) are the color guard.

 

I think common misuse has led to the use of the term color guard to mean all of those (color guards and flag bearers) involved in the ceremonial flag "team."

 

Thoughts?

[Stosh]

History 101

 

Color Guard: group of NCO officers responsible for the maintenance and positioning of the unit flags for the purpose of unit identification during maneuvers/battle.

 

A color guard usually consisted of 10 armed men and 2 color bearers. The purpose of the guard was to insure the flag could be seen during battle and maneuvers. The armed men protected the color bearers.

 

Up until WW I the color guard was no longer needed on the battlefield. Once the soldier entrenched himself, the need of a color guard was needed only for parade functions. Today it is only ceremonial in nature.

 

Parade formations are outlined by the military and Flag Code of 1923.

 

Normally flag ceremonies are held outdoors around a flag pole, funeral, or parade. Indoors the flags are mostly established before the meeting.

 

The Color indicates one US flag, if there be only one flag it comes forward with an armed guard on each side. If a second flag is introduced it is done so at the left of the Color. This could be a state flag, regimental flag, or whatever. If a third flag is introduced, the Color returns to the front row flanked on each side with an armed guard and the remaining flags form a second line.

 

Now, scouts are not armed, thus they guard nothing. Here's where the free-for-all begins and people start making up the rules as they go along.

 

The term color guard refers to all members of the ceremonial squad responsible for the flag whether they carry a flag or not.

 

The Color Guard is everyone.

A color guard is an armed person who protects a color bearer.

 

A color is a flag

 

Colors are multiple flags

 

The Colors are a group of flags one of which is the US flag.

 

The term Colors which refer to the US flag alone is incorrect.

 

Always remember one is using terms and procedures from two different entities and both do it differently. One is directed by military protocol (US Armed Forces) and the other is directed by no protocol (BSA and other civilian organizations)

 

 

[Vicki]

FScouter, in reference to beating a dead horse:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_a_dead_horse

 

Vicki (edited by author)(This message has been edited by Vicki)

[John-in-KC]

In the Army, a FLAG is the basic red, white and blue we know so well. A COLOR is a Flag which has a gold fringe on all four borders.

 

BTW, the bugle call is "To the Color."

 

REVEILLE is the official beginning of the duty day.

 

FIRST CALL is wake-up.

[Scouter&mom]

To further add to the confusion..

 

most US military branches don't salute indoors.. so when the colors are presented indoors and/or the Pledge is spoken, the right hand goes over the heart (no salute)

 

and the color guard wears their cover (hat) even indoors when presenting/retiring the colors.

 

We just discussed this last night on the way home from Jr ROTC Honors night.

[WVCubDad]

For those who are interested, Chapter 4 in the BSA publication 33212C, "Cub Scout Ceremnonies for Dens and Packs," 2005 printing, specifically deals with flag ceremonies to include indoor and outdoor posting, audience orientation and specific "commands".

 

Having the quick cheat sheet on this at NCS last weekend would have helped with the den flag raisings and lowerings, but they all got through it without raising a flag upside down. Would it have looked better with a quick review? Yes, but the point I'm taking away from this discussion is that there is a ceremony outlined, I can find it, teach it and use it. I doubt I'll get any negative feedback from the Cubs or adults in my pack if I just slip it in.

 

John

Tiger Den Leader

Pack 13

Shenandoah Area Council

[Stosh]

Hey! Couple of researched posts! Love it. Thanks John and Scouter&Mom.

 

And just when you think things are changing, I just got back from a camporee where the "color guard" was wearing blue jeans and sweatshirts, got the flag down off the staff and then proceeded to fold the blue into the middle before two adults came out and straightened them out.

 

Members of my new scout patrol immediately asked where their uniforms were even before it could start and my SPL turned to him and said, "Don't worry about it, you have yours on."

 

I surely don't want my boys growing up in scouting feeling elitist, but sometimes, the life lesson's just won't allow one not to be.

 

Stosh

 

 

[donbixby]

At a meeting I attended, someone talked about how the US Congress supposedly provided an alternate way for boy scouts to salute the flag when they are not in uniform. It is to make the scout sign, but hold the three fingers over the heart instead of at the brow like you do when in uniform. I've tried to find some proof of that, since I had never heard it before, and I haven't been able to find it anywhere. Has anyone heard of a special salute for non-uniformed scouts that is different that the regular hand over the heart?

[Stosh]

According to the Flag Code adopted June 14, 1923, males "salute" the flag by standing at attention. IF they are wearing a hat they remove the hat with their right hand and hold the hat over their heart (not their hand). IF it is inclement weather the man removes his hat and holds it above his head.

 

Females stand at attention and hold their right hand over their heart.

 

As long as everyone does their own thing, it really don't make much difference what the scouts do when not in uniform.

 

Stosh