saluting the flag

[oldman]

This is not a big deal, I think, but here goes. When the troop is formed in patrols for the opening, should they face forward when they salute and pledge the flag, do they face forward and turn their heads toward the flag, or do they (as our boys are starting to do, including the SPL)turn their entire bodies toward the flag?

Oldman

[CalicoPenn]

Seems to me they should face forward and salute as the flag should be carried through their ranks and placed in standards in front of them - once the flags are placed in their standards, they should say the pledge - since the flags are now in front of them as they are facing forward, there should be no need to twist their bodies or heads - the Senior Patrol Leader and the Color Guard, who should be up at the front, should fully turn however is necessary to face the flag when saluting and saying the pledge. There is no reason for the Scouts to face the flag and follow it as it is being carried through their ranks to be posted (or retired) and forward should always be where the flags end up being posted.

 

Calico

[LongHaul]

Let me stage this just a bit. The room is set up like an American football field. The goal post is the table where the SPL sits and the flags are already in standards either side of that table. The patrols are formed down each side line and face the center of the field when called to attention. When the SPL begins the meeting do the boys turn to face the flag or remain facing center field?

LongHaul

[FScouter]

Yes, it's kind of a big deal. The flag is a symbol of our country.

When you recognize and address someone do you crank your head 90 degrees to look at them, or do you turn to face them?

[epalmer84]

Scouter hat:

The BSA has only a few drill-type commands (Scouts salute and too). Other than what is in the handbook, there is really nothing about saluting.

 

Military hat:

The salute is always performed from the position of attention. It is the responsibility of the leader to face the group towards the flag and order present arms.

 

All hats:

Saluting is a sign of respect to the flag that represents our nation; thus extending that respect to the people of this nation and those who came before us, and to the sacrifices that were made. Scouts do not need military style drill, but a simple moment of respect. Twisting and turning looks awkward. Whenever the leader asks everyone to rise for the Pledge of Allegiance, everyone should rise and face the flag. If they are formed into patrols, then they should simply turn towards the flag. Keep it simple and respectful.

 

If someone is having trouble with saluting, one of the leaders (a youth leader for Boy Scouts) should take them aside and give them a short lesson. Ditto if the leader is having trouble.

 

Ed Palmer

[Beavah]

Yah, turn their bodies and face the flag, eh? Leastways, that's my vote.

 

I have another, perhaps pet, peeve. Seems like most troops I visit, and most troops at camp, just seem slovenly in their flag protocol. Now, I'm just fine with variations in uniformin', or boys who show up direct from band or soccer or whatnot without a uniform. I'm not talkin' strictly about appearance.

 

I'm talkin' about attitude. They slouch. They look bored. They're chewin' gum, with hands on their hips or in their pockets. Leanin' on tables, standin' on one leg, hand to brow but arm hangin' down like a limp noodle just to tired to really salute.

 

Perhaps I'm an old fuddy-duddy. But I really wish Scouters would take a few minutes to teach 'em how to stand up straight and not look like a putz. And then insist on it eh? I'd be happy with that, no matter which facing rule they chose.

 

Beavah

 

[anarchist]

Long Haul,

I'll take a shot at your example...but it is a double barrled shot...paraphrasing here...

 

First, US code flag protocal states that "persons in uniform will turn to face the flag"...however military units "in formation will remain in formation and salute directly ahead" ..."or as directed"...further,..."scouting type oganizations will salute in the manner dictated by their protocol and program" (go figure!)

 

"in a procession (parade) they will salute when the flag is (approx) six paces away and hold the salute until the flag has passed aproximately six paces".

 

In your "football field" analogy, one could argue that they boys are "in formation" and should/could salute the "unit" across the room (parade field) from them...a perfectly sound position. Personally, I would suggest to my PLs, they call "left or right face" (as appropiate) so the patrols faced the "goal posts" and do the pledge (our troop follows with the promise, law and outdoor code.)

hope this makes sense...

 

anarchist

[Eamonn]

I'm not an expert.

My vote is to turn and face the flag.

I echo what I think Beavah said.

 

At the 2001 Jamboree closing ceremony, the Troop was close to the aisle. Where a young Marine was standing. The flags were brought in a mix of the Troop Flags, American Flag and the national flags of the countries of international Scouts attending the Jamboree. This seemed to take a very long time.

The young Marine stood at attention and held his salute to the very end.

I tried!! But I thought my arm was going to fall off!

The English don't place their hand over their heart as a sign of respect for the Union Flag.

As I'm not an American this at times places me in an awkward position.

I of course would never show disrespect to the flag of an nation and I want to set a good example to the Scouts.

I do salute the American Flag and do place my hand over my heart (Which I did at the Jambo when my arm went numb.)

I'm happy to stand and salute when the pledge of allegiance is said, but I don't say it!

For our Sea Scout ceremonies the Scouts and myself do use the double salute when coming on or off the Ship. As a rule the ensign is already in place.(Not always!!) If the pledge is part of the ceremony the Ship does turn to face the flag.

Eamonn.

 

 

[Stosh]

Because no one ahderes to the Flag Code anymore, it's pretty much do as you wish with the flag.

 

The scouts don't follow military protocol and make up their own rules at they go along anyway.

 

Because of this, 1) the boys never learn any consistancy, 2) they adopted whatever custom they are familiar with, and 3) never know what the Code really says.

 

Unless there are some local traditions, everyone pretty much does what they wish with the courtesy to the Flag.

 

If one were to actually read the original Code, they would be VERY surprised with what was originally intended and what is actually "taught" and "practiced" today.

 

The modern guideline basically says, if it's "respectful" it's ok. If that makes no practical sense to you, well, welcome to the club.

 

Stosh

 

 

[kenk]

In our troop, after the flag has been posted, the SPL says "square off to the flag" just before he calls for the salute.

[acco40]

epalmer84, why would you command your Scouts to "additionally", or "also." In our troop, just like the military, we command our Scouts to go to position #2 (it's two, not too :-) )

 

I just had a remedial flag etiquette lesson in our troop this week because the boys do get sloppy. They need it at least once a year.

 

Another pet peeve of mind is the command I hear so often "right hand salute" as if there is an alternative left hand salute!(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Stosh]

The tradition is: do what you want. There is no such thing as "Right hand salute", there is no such thing as "Scouts Salute", there is no such thing as "Square off to the flag", there is no such thing as "Retreat the colors", there is no such thing as "Too/Tu/2/Two/To".

 

If one were to do it right, no one would know what is going on.

 

Back in the 1970's the BSA was trying desparately to distance themselves from the military and so they began to make up stuff along the way. Some of the traditions are still with us, but just because it's tradition doesn't make it correct. Scouts have been doing it respectfully incorrect for the past 20-30 years.

 

The proper command for a flag ceremony is "Color Guard, get in line", "Color Guard, take your hands out of your pockets", "Color Guard make sure everyone has their shirts tucked in", "Color Guard, take your hats off in the building," "Okay guys, come forward," "Ahaa!", Color Guard go back to the beginning, I didn't say Color Guard", "Scouts and Leaders attention, salute, present the colors". "Forward March,", "Color Guard halt," "Color guard cross over and post the colors, American Flag on the right....Your other right", "Please follow me in the Pledge...." "2".

 

Where in the Flag Code does it give any of this? No where. Where do they give any direction on conducting a flag ceremony? No where. How are flag ceremonies to be conducted then? According to military protocol, which of course, the BSA doesn't do, so you're dead in the water before you even start.

 

So keep on plugging away and don't worry about whether or not you're doing it right. You probably aren't, but then, except for the military, no one knows how it's done anyway.

 

Stosh

[packsaddle]

Thanks jblake47, for that sense of humor and reality. My personal reaction also is to cringe the way Beavah or Eamonn does when I see them being themselves. But I also recognize how the older ones are looking a lot better than they did starting out. And looking better because they want to, not because some old guy is yelling at them.

I also remember my own behavior as a boy. Not much has changed in basic human behavior, I'm afraid. I recognize the rather anal (am I allowed to write this?) command structure mentioned previously. But I also recognize the more useful and more-often-used command structure that you just listed.

[local1400]

" Encroachment- 10 yard penalty on LongHaul, repeat 2nd down." Okay, how do you guys deal with those precious few lads with ADD and can't stop moving long enough to salute? I know that particular horse just may be beaten dead, but I am curious. Have one here that is in constant motion, occasionally shrieks like a girl, and is all around disruptive/ disrespectful.

[FScouter]

What does it mean when one refers to beating a horse until it is dead? Why would one do that?