BSA service model?

[scoutingagain]

So if a duly authorized "rule changer", i.e. an SE, changes a rule he is allowed to change in a specific instance, is it really changing the program?

 

SA

[dan]

scoutingagain

Are you saying a SE will be/should be the only person who can change a rule?

 

I think the scouts should be able to change the rules, after all it is a boy run. think J6 and J12

[scoutingagain]

I'm simply making the assumption the "book" for SEs Beavah refers to in his post actually exists, and this book authorizes the SE to allow some flexibility in the administration of the overall scout program within his/her juridiction.

 

Personally, I've followed this thread and tend to agree with the concept that when rules are written, it is impossible to anticipate every circumstance and permutation that could arise and that there should be some level of appeal to an authorized authority that would allow a rule to be "broken" or changed in a specific circumstance.

 

SA

 

 

[SSScout]

"Daddy, what's that sign?"

 

"That's a speed limit sign"

 

"But what does it say?"

 

"It READS 'speed limit 40', Jacky"

 

"And why does it reeeead 'speed limit 40', daddy?"

 

"Because that's the speed that the police think is a safe speed for cars to be traveling on the road in this area, son"

 

"Is that your speed -oh-meter, daddy?"

 

"Yes"

 

"And does that show how fast we are going?"

 

"Yes."

 

"It's pointing to the six-five, daddy"

 

"Uh, no it's not, see those little lines are the numbers between the big numbers, so now it's pointing to the 40 one two three four five, see?"

 

"Uh-huh. What is the sign for, daddy?"

 

"It's supposed to tell people not to go faster than forty miles per hour, 'cause it's not safe. If you do, and they catch you, you can get punished."

 

"So you go faster so they can't catch you?"

 

"No, son, I go faster because... because I get in a hurry and I forget sometimes. Doesn't make it right. But if everyone drove however they wanted, or as fast as they wanted, we'd have alot more accidents and alot more people would get hurt. See?"

 

"Uh-huh. But isn't 45 more than 40?"

 

"Uh, yes."

 

"So are you going to get punished?"

 

"I hope not."

 

"So are you going faster than forty?"

 

"Well, see, sometimes the speed limit is really really safe, but you can safely drive a little faster. And the police won't bother you if you exceed the speed limit unless you are traveling a whole lot faster than than the speed limit. It's called 'leeway'"

 

"Leeway?"

 

" Yes. The term comes from old sailing ship days. It's a persons judgement. You'll usually never go wrong following the rules. The authorities go to alot of thought and trouble to figure out these rules so everyone will be safe. So you should be really clear and have a really good reason not to follow a rule and be ready to take the punishment if they catch you at it. Sometimes if you explain what your reason was the judge or whoever is going to punish you.."

 

"Like you and me, daddy?"

 

"Yeah, like you and me. Sometimes they won't punish you if you have a really good reason for not doing the rule."

 

"Uh-huh."

 

"Jacky?"

 

"Yes,daddy?"

 

"You're a good teacher, you know that?"

 

"I am?"

 

"Yes you are. Okay, here we are. Put your seatbelt back, there. Hello Ms kelly, here he is..."

 

"Goodbye daddy. Drive safely!!"

 

"I will. You be good, now."

 

"Okay, daddy"

 

 

 

 

[Stosh]

If one gets involved in discussions with national, one will quickly find that they are very cooperative and willing to review the "rules" to accommodate individual situations. While our Venturing Crew does not conform to explicit BSA rules, it does comply to an even greater extent to the rules of the hobby in which the crew operates. To try and comply with both sets of rules would be impossible. With this however being said, it took 3-4 years of dialogue to come to this consensus.

 

Stosh

[Beavah]

"Daddy, Mr. Jones says it's important that you never break the speed limit. How come we're going 80 mph when the speed limit says 70 mph?"

 

"Well, son, let's see. Look around you. What do you see the other cars doing?"

 

"They're all going about the same speed we are."

 

"OK, now let's try an experiment. I'm going to slow down to 65 mph to stay a bit below the posted speed limit. Let's watch what happens."

 

[car slows, several other cars change lanes quickly, one car swerves. Multiple cars pile up behind trying to scoot forward to pass. Two cars honk.]

 

"See, what we've created is called a 'moving roadblock'."

 

"Wow, Dad, that's pretty scary. It's almost caused a couple of accidents already."

 

"That's right, son. You see, traffic safety really depends on being able to rely on what other drivers are doing. So when someone does something unexpected, it makes things much less safe."

 

"But if everyone obeyed the speed limit, wouldn't that be predictable?"

 

"Yes, son, it would. That's good thinking. Now watch again [dad slows down to 65, chaos ensues]. How many cars are there behind us now?"

 

"Oh, about 12."

 

"How many do you think there'd be if we stayed at this speed?"

 

"A lot more. We'd cause a traffic jam."

 

"That's right. In fact, people have tried that, driving the speed limit with cars in all the lanes. They've caused massive traffic jams and accidents."

 

"Well then how come they don't set the speed limits better?"

 

"Well, that's a good question. You see, the people who make the laws aren't really traffic scientists. They do their best, but at times a lot of prejudice and other stuff creeps in. And in some places, they set the speed limits deliberately slow so they can catch people and make money."

 

"Wow, dad, that's not really fair."

 

"Well, it is and it isn't. They do post a sign after all. But the biggest reason is it's hard to make one rule for everything. See, today it's bright, sunny, and dry. But what if it were dark and rainy? Or if it were a big snowstorm?"

 

"Then everybody would have to slow way down to be safe. They'd have to go way below the speed limit!"

 

"Right again, good job. So you see, in that case, the speed limit would be too high, and by following the speed limit you'd be unsafe. OK, now you try to write the law."

 

"That's too hard, dad. You'd have to have a whole bunch of different speed limits for different conditions. And for different roads. And even for different cars and drivers. I wouldn't want Old Mrs. Fussbudget to go 80, she can't see very well."

 

"So what do you think the solution is?"

 

"I think you have to understand the way things work, dad, and then do the right thing."

 

"I think so too, son. And you have to trust your fellow citizens to do the same, even though you know occasionally one will make a mistake. In some countries they don't even put speed limits on highways or side streets, they just trust their citizens to be responsible. But I think rules are a good place to start, while you're learning. When you first start driving, we're going to pay close attention to speed limits until you develop some experience for a year or two."

 

"That sounds good, dad. But how come Mr. Jones says it's always bad to exceed the speed limit?"

 

"Well, I think Mr. Jones is telling you that because he knows you're a beginner, and he wants to make sure you start out right. And it might be because Mr. Jones knows there are some rules that are really very firm, like you should never drink and drive, and he doesn't want you to think that it's OK to break rules because you might break a rule like that."

 

"But dad, I'm not stupid. I can understand things if people trust me and explain them well."

 

"I know son. I'm proud of you."

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Stosh]

If one works at it long enough, they ought to be able to justify just about any action, decision, or rule-breaking they might wish to do. Just because it's possible, doesn't mean it's correct.

 

 

[Beavah]

If one works at it long enough, they ought to be able to justify just about any action, decision, or rule-breaking they might wish to do. Just because it's possible, doesn't mean it's correct.

 

Yah, or justify just about any kind of absurd rule or tyranny.

 

"To everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven."

 

That's why education, learning, and developing hands-on experience are most important, to know when and why a choice should be made. Educatin' an upright conscience and a healthy, rational mind.

 

We want to develop Men of Service, not men who are servants.

 

B.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[LongHaul]

Beavah,

I've been busy and had fallen behind in my forum reading. I noticed that yeasterday you once again made reference to what is and is not policy. I've asked before and am asking again can you please let the rest of us in on where you got your copy of the "Real BSA Policy" and where we might optain copies. You don't preface your policy statements with IMO so I can only read your post as claiming that you have actual knowledge of BSA Policy the rest of us don't. I really would like to know just what BSA Policy is on many issues so if you could enlighten me as to your source I would appreciate it.

LongHaul