Rumour Control

[DenZero]

The situation where this might make sense is for the Webelos II who hasn't finished the Arrow of Light. In our pack, our only Webelos II was invited to the April crossover ceremony being put on by our affiliated troop. He declined, saying he wanted to finish his AOL. Whether or not he finishes his AOL by our Blue & Gold in June, if he decides to join the troop at that time, we can hold a crossover ceremony for him then.

[Eamonn]

OK, I'll bite.

"That same boy can choose to stay in his pack with his buddies to finish up AOL."

No he can't.

While I hate to sound like a book thumper.

The Lad has until he is 11 or he completes 5 grade to meet the requirements.

Much the same as a Boy Scout has until he is 18 to complete Boy Scout requirements and Venturers and Sea Scouts have until they are 21 to complete the requirements in Venturing and Sea Scouting.

A Crew Advisor or Skipper can not sign off a boy for any of the requirements needed to become First Class .

If the Webelos Scout has not met the requirements by the time he is 11 or completed 5 grade. He has missed the boat as far as the AOL goes.

By this time his buddies are either in a Troop or have "Aged out"

The Den he was a member of is not there any more.

Boy Scouter's should not be signing off on Cub Scout advancements.

 

As far as "Yah, everybody's goin' off tellin' people they can't do this or that, it's not da program, yadda yadda yadda. I wonder if we'll ever get tired of it?"

 

I can't talk for anyone else but the program is the program and I'm happy to follow it.

If we want to toss the requirements out the window? It's not going to be the program any more!

Why bother having age groups?

What happens when the Lad turns 12 and hasn't met the AOL requirements? When do we say enough is enough?

I'm sure none of us want to harm any of the Scouts we serve, and while "What's the reason in terms of what's best for kids and our service to them?" seems to me to be saying "Eamonn you are a mean hearted nasty person"

This isn't the case. (At least I hope I'm not.)

I feel bad for the Boy Scouts who fail to meet the Eagle Scout requirements by the time they are 18.

I feel bad for the little Lad who doesn't meet the AOL requirements within the set time.

But the rules is da rules.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

OK here's my understanding of the situation.

 

1) Beavah, it sounds like the "why not" in this case is that someone is suggesting using the boy scout program to paper over a weak webelos program and/or weak webelos-scout transition program. That's just bad policy, short-sighted, and probably isn't going to work in the end anyway because it ignores the underlying problem. Sort of in the same way that starting venture patrols is not a cure-all for a troop with a weak older boy program, although the analogy isn't perfect because at least THAT is within the rules. Dual membership in Cubs and Boy Scouts is not.

 

The better solution here might be to look at why the webelos program and/or transition program isn't working or being properly delivered, and FIX it.

 

2) Eamonn, I think your understanding of when and how a boy transitions from cubs to boy scouts might be a little outdated (sorry). Current joining requirements for boy scouts state that a boy MAY join a troop if he is:

 

a) at least 10 and has his AOL, OR

b) at least 10 and finished with 5th grade, OR

c) at least 11, regardless of AOL or grade in school

 

But that's MAY. If you also look at the cub scout joining requirements for webelos listed on the front of the cub scout application, it says:

 

"Webelos ScoutMust have completed third grade, but has not completed fifth grade, or be age 10, but not yet 111⁄2."

 

I take that to mean that a boy who is in 5th grade - regardless of age - can remain a webelos scout, or a boy who is not yet 11 1/2 regardless of grade could remain a webelos scout.

 

In my area, most boys are 11 and some are 12 by the time the middle of 5th grade rolls around. The can still be cub scouts until the end of the school year. Conversely, my son was not yet 11 when 5th grade ended for him - he could, theoretically, have stayed with cub scouts for almost a whole extra year - though he'd have had to join the webelos I den to do so since "his" den all crossed over in mid-5th grade and so no longer existed. I don't think this would've been a good idea for him, but it would have been within the rules.

 

Finally, we have one boy who recently joined our troop who is still in 4th grade. He meets the age requirements and earned his AOL as a webelos II, but he was held back in school in 2nd or 3rd grade. He and his family elected to stay with his den/age peers rather than repeat a year of the cub program too. So he is also within the rules.

 

Maybe an interesting spin-off discussion would be whether we SHOULD go back to the purely age-based transition system? But I don't think that was the gist of what WDL Mom was asking about.

 

 

 

[evmori]

A boy can't be registered as a Cub Scout & Boy Scout at the same time. Once a boy completes the Boy Scout application, his tenure as a Cub Scout ends. He can no longer earn any Cub Scout awards or ranks. He is now a Boy Scout.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Eamonn]

Lisabob

As far as I can see; the only thing that has changed since I was involved in Cub Scouting is that at one time a Webelos Scout even with the Arrow Of Light couldn't join a Troop until he was ten and a half, it now seems to be down to ten years old.

I do understand and did post that he can remain in the pack until he completes 5 grade.

This isn't new the changes were made in 1986 when the Cub Scouting program was expanded to serve all elementary school grades.When the Webelos program was expanded to two years to include fourth-grade and fifth-grade boys.

Some time back in the late 1970's the Cub Scout program year changed to coincide with the school year.

Of course there may be reasons why boys might not be the same age as the other boys in their grade.

I wasn't happy with OJ's reading skills, so I held him back and he redid second grade. As he had already been in the pack, he was a grade behind the other boys in his den.

He had earned his AOL by the time he was ten and a half and moved to a Boy Scout Troop then.

The program designed for boys who are in the first grade through fifth grade (or 7, 8, 9, and 10 years of age).

The program isn't designed to last until the Scout earns the Arrow of Light.

I think I might have missed the "As soon" bit that WDL Mom posted.

There is of course different interpretations about when a grade is completed.

Is it at the end of the School year?

Or the start of the next year?

In our neck of the woods school is out for the summer at the end of May and returns the last week in August.

Nearly all the Troops do their best to get the Lad who has completed fifth grade, to attend Summer Camp that summer. Where of course he can work on Boy Scout advancements and merit badges.

Eamonn.

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[Beavah]

The Lad has until he is 11 or he completes 5 grade to meet the requirements.

 

Yah, so do we all have this straight now (thanks Lisa'bob!)? A lad has until he's 11 1/2 or until he finishes 5th grade, whichever comes later, to work on his AOL requirements.

 

At the point he turns 11 while in 5th grade, he can choose to go join a troop, or he can choose to stay with his buddies in the pack and finish AOL.

 

So why not both, if he has the time and interest?

 

If we want to toss the requirements out the window? It's not going to be the program any more! Why bother having age groups?

 

The only reason to have age groups, or to have a program, is service of the kids. It's not some magical talisman that exists for its own bureaucratic perpetuation.

 

In this case, a council is lookin' at things and saying, "Hey, we're seeing a way we might be able to be of better service to kids. Maybe if we encourage the slightly older 5th graders to hop into willing troops while they also finish up in cubs, it will build connections. Those boys might be more likely to continue, and they might pull their slightly younger pack-mates along.

 

Again, this is a decision where the council, in the BSA, has some discretion. If you're lookin' for a rigid, lockstep, standard-policy-across-the-US organization, you need to go somewhere else. That's not the BSA service model.

 

As Lisa'bob suggests, we should consider whether such a minor modification is a good policy or not, but it should be on the merits of how well it serves children. A council or two that tries it gives us some "hard data", eh?

 

Beavah

 

[ScoutNut]

Sorry, but I don't see how this is in "service to the kids".

 

If a boy is "bored" with Webelos, and he is 11 years old he should move up to Boy Scouts.

 

If a boy wants to earn his AOL, he stays in the Webelos program to work on his AOL.

 

Why would it benefit him to do both? Why would he want to? If his Webelos den is so badly run that he can't wait to get out, why would he come back once he has joined a BS Troop. Or, would his new SM then become his de facto Den Leader & plan Webelos activities for him?

 

How could the boy transition to being in charge of his own advancement & being a part of a boy-led Troop when at the same time he is having things done for him as a Webelos.

 

Why should the boy ever push himself to meet deadlines or follow rules when he knows that exceptions can always be made for him?

 

How would it make the other Webelos feel who are "forced" to stay in the badly run, boring, Webelos program? If we are going to ignore one rule to be "in service to the kids", what about other rules & other kids? Why not just move the Webelos into a Troop at the end of 4th grade and let them work on both AOL and BS ranks from that point?

 

Heck, if the Webelos programs are so boring, why not move them into a Troop at the end of 3rd grade and have them do both the Webelos rank and AOL while at the same time earning BS ranks?

 

 

[Beavah]

Why would it benefit him to do both? Why would he want to?

 

I dunno. I expect the council that's considerin' this, if they are, has some notions as to why it might work for their 11-year-olds. I trust 'em. Most Scouters are good folks.

 

I do recall back when we were askin' the same thing about Venturing. Why would a boy want to do both Venturing and stay in a Troop? The programs were designed very differently, targetin' different kids. I dunno why, but we found a fair number do both. Maybe to stay with friends; maybe to finish Eagle where they started (because Venturing really doesn't have an advancement method or focus). Maybe lots of other reasons, eh? Very different programs, but dual registration is OK.

 

So why can't a boy who is eligible for membership in both a pack and a troop dual register, for similar or different reasons? Got plenty of kids around here who earn AOL and stay with their pack until they're done with the season and go to Blue & Gold and the spring picnic. Got some who jump right away. Both seem just fine. Seems like the middle would be just fine, too.

 

So me, I'm in favor of supportin' my brothers and sisters in the field. I dunno if this'll be a good adaptation for them or not, but it seems like a pretty small thing, eh? Ain't worth sweatin' the small stuff. And who knows? One of these adaptations may very well become "the program" after the next revision cycle.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[FScouter]

Yeah, it does seem like a small stuff kind of issue. So if its small stuff for a Boy Scout to earn a Cub Scout award, why does it become a big deal when someone suggests we follow the program the way it is designed?

[gwd-scouter]

I agree that once a boy signs a Boy Scout application and joins a troop, he is no longer a Cub Scout and cannot earn any more Cub Scout awards.

 

But, in the case I posted earlier in this thread, the Scout in question was the only 5th grader in his Den and shortly after Christmas the Den stopped meeting regularly and was doing nothing to support his efforts to earn the Arrow of Light.

 

He only had a couple of requirements left, finish the Outdoorsman and Readyman pins, then the Arrow of Light requirements to talk with a Scoutmaster and attend a Troop meeting.

 

So, presented with this information by his Cubmaster, what should I have done? Tell the boy to just do nothing for two months until he turns eleven and then he can join our troop? Or, work with him to help him finish his AOL requirements thus continuing his Scouting experience for the couple of months he had until he either finished AOL or turned 11 (he earned AOL one week before he turned 11).

 

Since our Troop was planning to do some first aid skills at our meetings in February, it was a perfect opportunity for our Scouts to help this Scout finish his remaining requirements for Readyman. Since he also had the requirements left of attending a Troop meeting, going on a campout to finish Outdoorsman, doing another outdoor activity with the Troop and talk with a Scoutmaster for AOL, I thought it was perfectly reasonable to help this boy out.

 

I not saying I would want to make a permanent practice of this, nor do I think it a good idea to consider dual enrollment for a boy in both the Pack and Troop. I just considered this an opportunity to help a guy out, keep him interested, and keep him in Scouting which he so obviously wants to do.

 

He completed his AOL requirements in mid-March and one week later he turned in his Boy Scout application.

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[BrentAllen]

Cub Scout Leader Book, Chapter 21, Webelos Program, pg. 21-12

"5. The Scoutmaster provides an Application to Become a Boy Scout, which the Webelos Scout completes and returns to the Scoutmaster. This application is help until graduation, when the boy is ready to move his membership to the troop.

 

6. When the Webelos Scout is ready to move his membership to the troop, the pack leadership conducts a graduation ceremony at the pack meeting.

 

Webelos dens usually graduate together and form a new patrol in the troop. Grade-based Webelos dens are encouraged to graduate by February of the fifth-grade year. If a Webelos Scout has not earned the Arrow of Light, he may remain in the den until he turns 11 years old or completes the fifth grade."

 

Beavah, I don't see anything that allows a boy to join Boy Scouts and still remain in the Pack. The program is very specific about moving his membership from one program to the other.

 

For the Scout program to mean anything, it must have standards. This is one of them.

[WDL Mom]

Lisabob thanks for the explanation on the age guidelines for Cubs transitioning to Boy Scouts.

 

Beavah: I find your comment interesting, sort of a reverse den chief...

 

In this case, a council is lookin' at things and saying, "Hey, we're seeing a way we might be able to be of better service to kids. Maybe if we encourage the slightly older 5th graders to hop into willing troops while they also finish up in cubs, it will build connections. Those boys might be more likely to continue, and they might pull their slightly younger pack-mates along.

 

I don't know if my Council thinks that this would help our Webelos to Boy Scout Transition or not. I don't have any numbers, but, I would think that the number of boys that could conceivable "dual" register would be small at best.

 

IMHO, the problem is that frequently in the Webelos II year, things are gradually grinding to a slow finish. This is my outside observation of our Webelos II dens over the past 6 years.

 

My plan for next year is to try to ramp up the outdoor stuff and reduce the "den meetings". This is where the Troops need to step up and help the Webelos Den Leaders who frequently don't have the experience/equipment to do these things.

 

My other thought was along the lines of how LDS advances based on age... Do they have a better transition rate due to this policy or is it such a different beast that the comparison isn't valied?

 

I appreciate your comments.

[BrentAllen]

"My plan for next year is to try to ramp up the outdoor stuff and reduce the "den meetings". This is where the Troops need to step up and help the Webelos Den Leaders who frequently don't have the experience/equipment to do these things."

 

Review Chapter 22 of the Cub Leader Book, Webelos Scout Transition to Boy Scouting. It outlines the responsibilities of the Pack, Webelos Den Leader and Troops. The Webelos Den Leader needs to contact Troops in July/August to start planning joint Troop/Webelos II campouts.

 

Definitely ramp up the outdoor activities. We did, and the result is our boys are better campers than many of the younger boys in the Troop they joined.

 

Our Webelos II schedule looked like this:

September Rock Climbing campout with Troop 266 (our boys went bouldering)

October Pack Parent/Son camping trip

November District Webelos Woods Campout

December Horseback riding & visit to Warm Springs with Troop 477

January Webelos Caving Trip

March Backpacking Trip with Troop 764

 

Add in the Pinewood Derby, some Den meetings to work on AOL - they didn't have many chances to get bored.

 

[Lisabob]

OK Beavah, if I understand properly you are not claiming that the policy is unclear or something like that, but rather that we shouldn't feel bound by the (clearly defined) rules. Your argument is different from Gwd's situation because you are saying yes,as district or council policy, formally register in both programs at once, while she was saying (quite rightly, IMO) that her troop would lend a hand to an individual boy as a guest to the troop, but she did not allow him to register with the troop until he met the joining requirements, and upon registering as a boy scout he ceased to be a cub scout. I'm betting she didn't let him use the things he'd done for his webelos readyman pin toward his Tenderfoot/2nd Cl/1stCl 1st aid requirements, either. We'll just have to agree to disagree on your approach to policy Beavah.

 

But even assuming we allowed for this sort of thing to happen, I don't see how the district or council pushing dual enrollment solves the more important underlying problem. If you have a weak webelos program or exhausted webelos II leaders counting the days until they're "done" or a bad district-level transition program, at the district or council level you solve it by improving the parts that aren't working. The district/council should be considering things like providing more (better?) training to Webelos leaders, promoting program helps and other local resources so WDLs aren't getting so burned out, developing a solid UC corp to help packs with leadership recruitment & development, developing a better district-wide W-S transition plan, etc..

 

Imagine if the tables were turned and a district or council had a weak boy scout program with ineffective support in place (training, service, etc.) and the answer was, well just let boys stay dual-enrolled in Cub Scouts for a while! Maybe into 6th or 7th grade? Sure they can earn merit badges in their extended dens at the same time they work on those webelos activity pins. Yeah. If that won't fly then neither will this proposed "solution."

 

To me this sounds like a half-cocked plan thought up by someone who has forgotten that the Cub and Boy Scout program, while related, are also quite different. To me it sounds like something that could only be considered seriously by a person who places rather little value on the Cub program in its own right. I've met plenty of Scouters - almost always people who have been with troops for umpteen years and a day- who take this kind of arrogant and condescending view of the Cub program and I find it a little annoying to be honest. How about we focus on a solution to the actual problem in the context of the program instead? The boys in the Cub program deserve no less from us.

[Beavah]

Sure, Lisa'bob, all good points, (even if the phrasing is a bit tough, eh? ).

 

Those are good points because they talk about what's in the best interest of kids, and how to better reach them with what we offer. That makes for a good discussion among friends, and offers ideas to help.

 

If there's real structural issues with the webelos program in the area, I agree that doin' this short-term dual-registry option is like rearrangin' deck chairs. It's not something I'd consider or even suggest to someone.

 

My only comment was that this particular idea is well within an SE's discretion. That's not saying you or I can do such a thing on our own, mind you. That's sayin' that in the BSA, that sort of small adaptation can be made by the Scout Executive for a council. That's part of how the BSA really works, internally. Kinda like how NCS standards and G2SS differ in some ways, so quotin' G2SS at a camp director really isn't going to accomplish much or make any friends, since he's bound to NCS. But all most volunteers know or have access to is G2SS, so to those so inclined, quotin' G2SS feels righteous. In reality it's like an amateur trying to tell a professional the proper way to do somethin'. I'm just tryin' to save folks some angst and embarrassment.

 

I think it's perfectly OK to raise the other issues you raise if an SE is considering such an approach - "What is the problem we're trying to address?" "Is this the best way to address it?" "How exactly will kids benefit?" "What are the potential downsides?" Especially if you're on the executive committee . All those fine things might affect our kids.

 

I suspect the problem is that there's very little the council, and particularly the council professionals, can do to affect unit-level program. They really have no control over it at all, and the poor guys are bein' evaluated on a short-term basis on the results of all those unit-level programs. So they're doing the small things they can in the short term, hopefully while comin' up with some longer term plans as well.

 

I do disagree with the belief that allowing dual registry discounts one program over another. Dual registry is common in the older scouting programs and for adults. Just because a council encourages boys to join Varsity Teams and Venturing Crews doesn't mean that they don't understand or that they discount the Boy Scouting program. And allowing an adult to dual as a Den Leader and an ASM is not a statement that cubs aren't valuable. Leastways, I don't see it that way. Quite the opposite, the programs should complement each other.

 

Beavah

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)