Punishments - How far is too far?

[Beavah]

Yah, I agree with ajmako, but I think he's leavin' out a whole bunch of stuff.

 

I don't believe the positive troop stuff he's talkin' about happens because the troop avoids havin' lots of policies and rules. I think the positive dynamic happens because of personal relationships with boys established by a certain kind of adult.

 

Now, it just so happens that da right kind of adult is also one who doesn't agree with setting a lot of extra rules and policies (so we all can use that to help us find the right adults to lead troops, perhaps. ) But the cause of what ajmako describes is the right adults in a long-term relationship with kids.

 

We won't get there by just doing away with rules/policies and sayin' "Oath and Law."

 

Yah, yah, OK. But da problem many units face is a program that's been on "autopilot" for a while. Or, sometimes, a new unit leader comes in who doesn't have the knack for relating to packs of teenagers.

 

Some poor behaviors happen, as they always will.

 

One of three things happens then, eh?

 

* The less experienced/savvy leader isn't sure of himself/herself or quite what to do, and lets the mild poor behavior go. Some adults don't understand boys well enough to even recognize the "small stuff" to respond to (like the dirty look, or the sideways mean comment). Either way, this means that the boy(s) will escalate, and behaviors will slowly get worse. Boys want to "feel the edges".

 

* The less experienced/savvy leader isn't quite comfortable confronting a big teen or any individual boy, and instead will respond to the group. This might be a lecture to the whole group, or it might be a "new rule/policy" for the whole group. Such adults always seem to need a "policy" to do what is obvious. The kid who misbehaved isn't deterred, and now the group is resentful for bein' punished for somethin' they had no involvement in.

 

* The less experienced/savvy leader will overreact, and start yelling and/or issuing threats or punishments that go beyond what's needed - and more importantly, go beyond the "social capital" that leader has with the boys. Sometimes, they'll activate "zero tolerance" policies in trivial situations. This kind of "raw" exercise of arbitrary authority throws even good kids into rebelliousness.

 

 

I think ajmako's exposition is only tryin' to tell people to avoid traps #2 and #3. (He/she will have to let me know if that's right ) That's good advice, eh? But it ain't enough to pull off what s/he's talkin' about.

 

*****

 

Yah, so what's an adult to do? Biggest thing is find the right adult to serve as leader!! But assumin' we're stuck in the situation with a kinda problem-type troop, where do we start?

 

I think we have to start by gettin' to know the kids, personally. Know their interests. Know their hobbies. Know their families. Most especially, know what they're good at. Recognize 'em for their talent. Take a personal interest in each, eh? And, along the way, live the Oath and Law ourselves. Show humor, and be fun. Live a joyful life of integrity and service in their presence. Our authority in their eyes comes from our social capital.

 

Dat's the part ajmako left out, eh? He's able to pull a kid aside and have a gentle Scout Spirit conversation because he's developed the relationship with the boy to pull it off. He just didn't tell yeh about that part .

 

There will be some boys most of the time (usually the more active lads), and all boys some of the time, for whom talkin' will go in one ear and out the other, though. They need consequences, fairly and consistently delivered. Each adult will figure out da kind of consequences he/she likes. Pushups are just fine for some, kybo cleaning just fine for others, missin' ice cream or a favorite activity can be grand. I don't think it matters a lick what the consequence is so long as its "difficulty" matches the offense, it's delivered consistently (with sadness, not with anger), it causes the boy to express remorse, and after it's done the boy's slate is wiped clean in everyone's eyes.

 

Yah, and we have to mean what we say, like evmori says! Consequences are a promise. If we don't follow through, we're a liars in all the boys' eyes. But when we do follow through, especially in real cases of "tough love" our social capital in their eyes goes way up - so much so that the good kids feel empowered to do some of their own policin'.

 

That's how yeh get a rough troop back. Find the right adult. Know the kids. Build a reputation for both fun and integrity. Be firm and consistent in consequences as your reputation can handle it. Deal with misbehavior personally and in private most of the time, avoidin' "policy" and public confrontation. And be firm and resolute in those cases that demand "tough love".

 

Beavah

 

 

[ajmako]

Yah, I agree with ajmako, but I think he's leavin' out a whole bunch of stuff.

 

Yeah, that's par for the course. Would you believe I was trying to simplify things? No? Okay, then I must have forgotten all the other stuff.

 

But the cause of what ajmako describes is the right adults in a long-term relationship with kids.

 

Hello Muddah, hello Fadduh, amen Bruddah!

 

I think ajmako's exposition is only tryin' to tell people to avoid traps #2 and #3. (He/she will have to let me know if that's right ) That's good advice, eh? But it ain't enough to pull off what s/he's talkin' about.

 

He will tell you that he's been caught in all three traps more times than he'd like to admit, and now that you mention it the only reason he didn't try to tell people to avoid trap #1 was that he forgot.

 

Dat's the part ajmako left out, eh? He's able to pull a kid aside and have a gentle Scout Spirit conversation because he's developed the relationship with the boy to pull it off. He just didn't tell yeh about that part.

 

Ooh, thank's Beavah, now I remember! I didn't tell yeh about it 'cause I thought it was obvious, eh? [face saved?]

 

Getting to know the boys personally not only makes it easy to see their growth, it also makes it easy to see what sort of consequence is most likely to jump-start their brain. Had a Scout back when I was fond of "Scout Law Push-Ups" who always seemed to look for reasons to do them. Took me a couple conversations to put 2 and 2 together and figure out he liked doing push-ups and didn't mind the attention either.

 

AJ(This message has been edited by ajmako)

[kb6jra]

Beavah and AJ, I think you're absolutely right about the personal relationships. I treat nearly all my boys as my own. I attend their sports events if I have time, I ask about their pets, know their parents and siblings...I worm into their families. It's not only a great social thing for me, but it produces great results as it pertains to behavior, teamwork, advancement...all those scout things we love so well.

 

Notice I state "I treat nearly all my boys as my own." Some boys are not so approachable, and some are so jaded by previous interactions with adults that they are skittish. I've got a new ASM that needed a SM Conference so I could tell him that you draw more bees with honey than with vinegar. The boys hated him until that conversation, now they think he's pretty cool and will do whatever he asks.