Daughter's want to be Boy Scouts hate Girl Scouts

[Pint]

Scouting in the UK has now gone fully Co-ed, and so far there have been no major problems, then sky hasnt fallen in, and in the UK there also exists Girl Guides ( equivalent to Girls Scouts in the USA)

Worldwide there also exist some non aligned Scout organisations, ( ie not members of WOSM) that re co-ed such as the Baden Powel Scouts, however before contacting any it would be advisable to make sure that they have the basic safety nets in place, susch as insurance, background checks on adults and so on.

[Scouting Mom]

When my oldest joined Cub Scouts, there were a lot of little sisters running around and tagging along. Then someone told me that the Girl Scout program in our area was unorganized and had problems finding leaders. I looked at my 2 year old daughter and thought, "If I want her to have someplace to go, maybe I should volunteer now and try to fix it up for her sake."

 

I found out that someone had beat me to it. Rumors of chaos and disorganzation proved to be untrue, or at least, no longer true. I've since been told by GS parents that their girls love scouts because they have some dedicated leaders and do lots of fun things. Much of that is due to this one Mom from our Cub Scout pack stepping up and taking over at a regional level.

 

My girl is still not old enough for Girl Scouts (next year). So, I don't have close knowledge of the workings of GSUSA, but I know the organization is very different from BSA. I imagine that there is still a certain amount of "shopping around" you can do to find a troop that is better organized and more suited to your families needs. If not, there's always the philosophy of "if you want something done right, do it yourself."

[pargolf44067]

I understand the frustration with Girl Scouts. My daughter was in a Daisy/Brownie troop where we used to live and we dropped because it was so disorganized. After we moved, she joined another Brownie troop and, although it was slightly better, it was still very disappointing for my daughter (no camping or real outdoors stuff). We switched troops this year (my daughter moved up to the next school and all the other girls were still in her old school in 4th grade)to a troop whose leaders are involved in Boy Scouts as well (including one in my troop). It is amazing the difference when you have some people involved that are really organized and let it be somewhat girl run (at least as girl-run as 5th graders can be). My daughter (and wife) are enjoying it much better now!

[HiLo]

moxieman posted:

 

"Several times over the past many years and some of those times I got this from our paid scouters: BSA isn't completely coed because of some sort of agreement with GSUSA. If it weren't for that agreement, we would be ScoutsUSA (much like BSC became Scouts Canada about 15 years back). One of the explanations has been something about GSUSA having better lawyers. (shrug) "

 

That's a really interesting perspective moxieman. I'm from Australia, one of those places where Scouting is now completely co-ed, and we often wonder about why Scouting in the US is like it is. Yours seems a highly likely explanation.

 

Girl Guides, our equivalent to your Girl Scouts, still exists, and varies a lot in its program depending on the interests and attitudes of its leaders. We have a strong, very active, outdoors oriented Girl Guide group as neighbours, and joint activities are on the increase. Last night was a hot one around these parts and, seeing our Scouts having fun outdoors with water, the girls asked if they could join in. It was a great impromptu event.

[purcelce]

The Girl Scout units around my parts are great. My daughter is a Junior and her troop does a lot of stuff, have a great program, heck they even went camping this past weekend.

 

As with any organization it is the leaders that make or break the program.

 

[Herms]

Mom,

 

I have felt your pain. I spent almost 5 years with the Girl Scout program with my daughter before we gave up on it. My daughter couldn't wait until she turned 14 so she could join a Venture Crew and now is loving it. My only advise would be to drag your daughter along to the events letting her participate where she can and then get her in a Crew when she is old enough. Good luck.

[captainron14]

As a father of both sons and daughters, I have tried to have a quality program for all of my kids. Being a scouter and an eagle scout, that was not a problem with my boys.

However, for my girls, it was. Since my wife is very shy and has issues with large groups, trying to help out with our girls is left to me.

The GSUSA groups in every area we have lived have basiclly told me "if we need some extra drivers to deliver cookies, we will call you". They treated me (and other Fathers) like some kind of "freak" for wanting to be involved. The focus at all of the groups seemed to be all too much on selling cookies. After a couple of tries with several different Girl Scout groups, we bagged it and tried to give our girls something similar to what the boys had. I along with another Dad, took our girls on outings similar to what the boys in the troop did. We eventually registered them in a Venturing crew.

[HiLo]

Does anyone else see the self fulfilling nature of what happens with Girl Scouts? Because they tend tend to have a more conservative program than Boy Scouts, those who go through that program, and then become leaders in it, will tend to have the same conservative outlook. It doesn't prove that girls' and boys' needs are different. It simply proves that we have always treated them differently.(This message has been edited by hilo)

[Slouchhat]

I'm running a co-ed troop and I don't have a different program for the girls. The result is that despite their obvious feminine properties, they play as hard as the boys do.

 

One patrol is scheduled for their scout test this upcoming March and a girl was the first to know all the necessary knots for the test.

We will not be able to buy a patrol-size tent for them so they are using the old two-man pup tents and I don't want boy and girl to share the same tent. However, with the larger patrol tents, it is okay to do so given that an adult leader is sleeping in the same tent.

I know, things are a bit different over here.

 

But if you let the kids turn loose on a decent program, boys and girls will show that they can do it.

 

best regards,

Volker

[purpledragon]

Welcome,

 

I read your intro. and started to nod in understanding. I too had terrible issues getting my daughter into scouts (I was on the wait list for 3 years. When I found a troop on my own and called to let them know they could take me off the wait list I found out that they actually did not have me on it at all! Go figure.).

 

After that we were in the troop .... well not a good troop it turned out. So I truely feel your pain. Here many troops run a the minimum level. They refuse to take more girls and the ones they take are all from the same school and the same grade...very cliquish.

 

I have no doubt that we could swap GS stories well into the night. Another issue here is that the SU person (sorry I don't know her exact title) just tells people that they need to be a leader if they want their daughter in scouts. Which is a bad situation and ends up excluding many girls from scouting.

 

I managed to get my son in an awesome pack. He was a Webelo for exactly 6 months. In that time he managed to earn all 20 pins and many belt loops. He loved scouting. Because of this my daughter grew upset that she did not yet have a troop. As the time has gone on my daughter also saw her brother in a great troop while hers was....well lacking. In the end I became a leader for a troop. This troop is Juniors (4th and 5th) right now. We are going to be active in outdoor activities and I have researched about the missing outdoor skills that are now missing from GS. We are sponsored by the same group our BS troop is and we are their sister troop and they are our brother troop. In time I will help lead a Venturing crew with the BS troop. The scout master is looking forward to this in time. The goal is to get my GS troop able to go into the Venturing Crew if they chose when they are old enough. I will be with the BS troop and following their ways when needed to get the "outing" back into Girl Scouting, and to create a GS troop that the girls will actually not drop out of.

 

You are right, you basically have the three options you mentioned. Unfortunately, at one time or another your girls will not be allowed to tag along with the boys. I never had this option as mine started BS when the girl joined a GS troop. Seeing how important it is to both of my children I decided to support them in scouting (unlike my ex who hates scouting). I too like outdoor skills, cooking, crafts, outdoor outings, and believe in community service as well as having my children in a group to learn the dynamics, to grow and to become leaders.

 

My a good friend of ours has an autistic boy and two girls with their own learning disabilities. I truely understand the added complexity of your situation.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

"In time I will help lead a Venturing crew with the BS troop."

 

A Venturing Crew has nothing to do with a Boy Scout Troop. They are completly separate entities, with different charters, and different rules and different focuses. Starting a Venturing Crew is up to a Charter Organization(CO) - not a Scoutmaster.

 

If there are youth connected with your CO currently who would like to be in Venturing, they can talk to the Charter Org Representative, or the head of the Charter Organization, to see if the CO is interested in Chartering a Crew or Ship now.

[Oak Tree]

ScoutNut, I think you may be wording it a bit strongly to say that "a Venturing Crew has nothing to do with a Boy Scout Troop."

 

Around here, it's very common for a crew to operate almost as a subset of a troop. All the boys are dual-registered, as are the leaders. So there is a lot of overlap. I'd even venture (pun intended) a guess that some of the crews are indeed started by Scoutmasters.

 

Now, as you say, the description of a pure Venturing crew does depict it as a stand-alone unit, not associated with a troop. But in practice that's just often not the case - and it seems a little much to jump on this particular statement by purpledragon.

[ScoutNut]

The scenario you describe is more of a Venture Patrol than a Venturing Crew. They are created by SM's who want a way to keep their older boys involved in the Troop. Usually they end up complaining that the Crew is "stealing" boys from the Troop because the boys become more involved with the Crew, do their advancement thru the Crew, and no longer attend that many Troop functions. Most of the "Venture Patrol" Crews I have seen have had a short shelf life.

 

Crews should be created for/by the YOUTH, with a specific focus in mind. Not by a SM hoping to keep his boys interested.

 

However, I do apologise to purpledragon if my comments seemed out of line to her.

 

[purpledragon]

We have another Venturing Crew (VC) in the next city (about 10 mins. drive from here ... so very close) that is associated (however they do so) with a troop that we split off from. (Our troops are still on good terms with each other.) My observation on VCs is based on my limited interaction with this group.

 

Here is the background of our troop. We started two and a half years ago with nine boys that had just bridged to BS six months earlier. We have averaged a gain of close to 17 boys each year since from bridging. Many of our boys are involved in sports or other activities. We have lost some along the way as well. Of our original nine boys we still have two, one Life and one Star. We gained our only oldest boy (a Life Scout) who also is our only boy who had previous BS experience (as in not bridging up from cubs) about five months ago. He moved into the area from back east. Our older boys are only thirteen and one is fifteen. We have about 40 boys in the troop right now (but we are starting to get our bridging boys, of which we expect about 10 more). We have two Life Scouts, one Star and twelve First Class. Of the 40 boys 12 just joined in the last month and 4 others in the past six months. This city has one other general BS troop and 4 LDS troops. We actually get feeder boys from two other packs out of our city.

 

Now let me lay to rest the venturing patrol/crew issue. Our boys have a mixture of high adventure and not high adventure within their troop activities. We do not have enough boys of the proper age for a VC right now. The boys have decided to not create a special venturing patrol, they want the activities open to anyone who chooses to participate and who are qualified to do so. Our last high adventure outing was a backpacking trip to the top of Half Dome. The boys completed this in a weekend (it is close to ten hours to drive round trip to Yosemite from here.) Some of the older boys have talked to people from the VC (mentioned earlier) and are interested in starting one. This crew describes themselves as a water based crew (they focus on water based activities). The boys are talking about a camping/backpacking based crew (because they want to focus on camping and backpacking trips).

 

The SM is not just starting a crew, the boys have voiced an interest and have been told that when they are old enough we will start one. This crew is not being started to keep the older boys interested in scouting, the boys want a crew (at least at this point).

 

 

 

Thanks to Oak Tree for mentioning But in practice that's just often not the case - and it seems a little much to jump on this particular statement by purpledragon.

 

This is what I had observed for a VC and what I had partially felt by reading ScoutNuts post. Then I realize that ScoutNut does not know all of the details of our troop and cannot be expected to mind read them, so I figured that the full situation was misunderstood and responded based on what ScoutNut thought might be going on instead of what was going on. In the end I did get more information to think about.

 

[Cheerful Eagle]

Hi Mom,

 

Gee, you and I are totally in the same boat. What to do is really a matter of just how crazy are you?

 

I am certifiable. I started a GSUSA troop last year. It only took 3 months to get the ducks in a row as far as the council is concerened. From this I learned that most GS councils are ridiculusly understaffed. If you need something, or start outside the usual box (like starting a troop in February instead of August) then you must play the part of a squeeky wheel. Be very assertive and persistant, but cheerful. Things were very tough, as I had no back-up adults, no funds and no chartered organization (not required in GS). This year they are better, as I have linked up with a like-minded leader who is tied into a local church, so now we have meeting space. And as we are (dare I admit it here *wince*) selling cookies, we should have some funds to do some camping etc this coming year.

 

If you are crazy enough to jump into Girl Scouting ( as I did) here's a few pitfalls to remember:

 

#1 Troops stand alone. The Leader stands alone. At least that is the standard set up. There is NO pack committe (which I LONG for as a GS leader), and the troop is usually ONE PROGRAM level. You are required to have 2 registered adults, but no more. Moreover, very few GS leaders are really familiar with BSA standards.

So, with regards to structure, my advice is,

1. find a like-minded friend to co-lead with. It's just too much pressure for one person. 2. And then recruit parents like mad. Make your own "troop committee" as you can. GS people will stress that the girls should be functioning like a Troop Committee, but untill they are about 11/12 they have no real ability to do that. (IMHO)

3. Consider having a multi-level troop (not against the rules, but very unusual) and recruit parents to be "patrol leaders". Voila, you have a pack type structure.

 

In my experience, (and as you have found too, I think) the idea of starting a troop is just too overwhelming for most people. But I bet helping a partol within a troop would be a lot less intimidating. I'll be finding out this year, since some of my girls are aging out of juniors, but there are younger siblings and their friends just starting juniors who are joining this spring.

 

ANOTHER pitfall is lack of structure in the program. Daisies (kindergarden) have 8 petals to earn, but Brownies and on up have about a gazillion try-its or badges to earn. Juniors on up can earn the Bronze (as a junior), Silver (as a cadette) and Gold (as a senior) Awards. These are like ranks in BS, they include required badges as well as service projects.

 

As a leader, you need to look at the program books and decide what you are going to major in. I am trying to keep a balance baised on what I see in the Webelos program. Of coures, the girls are beginning to weigh in on what they want to do. I think many leaders just end up filling their calander with council sponcered activities as well as fun outings (always spending cookie funds on amusment park trips)and don't have an overall vision. If you are the on-point leader, your primary job will be to develope and execute your vision.

 

My daughter wishes she could be a boy scout too. Her older brother is almst at Star, and her younger brother is a wolf cub. I used to be an eagle (WE3-55-04). I love scouting, but sometimes its hard not to let the GSUSA take the joy out of it.

 

I encourage you, though, if you have the vision consider taking it on. Working within the GSUSA umbrella does give some benefits, (most notably insurance) and then your daughter can have a "real"uniform too and work on earning her own highest award in scouting (the Gold award).

 

Sarah and I are both looking forward to her 14th birthday when she can join the venturing crew associated with her brothers troop. Until then we will doing our best to honor BP and Juliette Low's vision of scouting.