BSA for girls

[Lisabob]

I had a funny conversation with someone today. The dad has a son who just crossed from cubs into boy scouts and a daughter who is in girl scouts. They are very disappointed with the girl scout program. Poor organization, poor leader training and support, not enough outdoor and adventure emphasis, GSA's stance discouraging parental involvement, etc.. I was expecting to hear the dad lament that his daughter can't join cub scouts and boy scouts but no. Instead he said that what he wishes for is a parallel all-girl program, just run by the BSA!

 

Hmm, talk about potential for growth...of course the GSA would probably have a cow.

 

 

[scottteng]

When she turns 14 she can join a venture crew lots of girls do.

[emb021]

Who's the GSA? What's a 'venture crew'?

 

 

Actually, the GSUSA already had a cow over the BSA taking Exploring co-ed in 1971, after a 2-3 year experiement where the BSA tried to get GSUSA and Camp Fire to merge with them into a single scouting organization ("Scouting/USA").

 

Due to this, there is apparently an agreement between the BSA & GSUSA that the BSA will NOT take the Cub Scout or Boy Scout programs co-ed.

 

Your idea of the BSA creating an all-girl program for those under 14 is not that new. I know of a couple of people who have proposed that already.

 

I have found that many girls who are 14 and over typically join Venturing Crews or Sea Scout Ships to do the 'scouting' stuff that is pretty much lacking in Girl Scouts. It seems the only respone that the GSUSA had done is the creation of the "Studio 2B" program, which sounds a LOT like the Exploring program of the 70s and 80s. But seems to be very disliked by many girls. (its even less of a 'traditional' program then girl scouts).

 

 

[ScoutNut]

GSUSA does not discourage parental involvement. Parental involvement is definately encouraged. However, GSUSA is NOT Cub Scouts. It is not family driven. From the very youngest, it is set up more like Boy Scouts than Cubs, with the girls being progressivly given more & more control of their own Troop.

 

Like any other program, a Girl Scout Troop is only as successful as it's leaders make it. Some GS leaders are pretty bad, don't follow the GS program or do much of anything with their girls other than "crafts & cookies". Some GS leaders arewonderful, very much gungho, outdoor oriented types, who follow the program to the "T" & whose Troop is involved in tons of different things. Then there are the tens of thousands of leaders who fall somewhere in the middle.

 

If your dad is dissapointed in his daughters GS program, then I would tell him the same thing I tell parents who are dissapointed in the BSA program - Step up to the plate, get involved & MAKE IT BETTER!

 

 

 

BTW emb021 - I don't know about any non-coed agreement between BSA & GSUSA, but I DO know that one of BSA's pilot Kinder Lion Scout programs is co-ed.

 

 

 

[emb021]

"If your dad is dissapointed in his daughters GS program, then I would tell him the same thing I tell parents who are dissapointed in the BSA program - Step up to the plate, get involved & MAKE IT BETTER!"

 

A problem I've heard with Girl Scout Troops is that the program variety (crafts & cookies to 'real scouting' if you will) is MUCH wider then the program variety of Boy Scout Troops (ie good to bad), and sadly MOST Girl Scout Troops lean to the crafts & cookies. A lot of girls come to venturing because SO FEW girl scout leaders are willing/able to provide 'real scouting' (camping, etc), as well as the high training restrictions the GSUSA put on troop leaders before they are allowed to camp or even doing something like canoeing.

 

With Boy Scouts if you don't like a troop's program, there are usually a half dozen others nearby that you could try out, and most will have good programs. In Girl Scouts, a local service team will run ALL the nearby troops the same way, so you'll have to go farther to try to find a 'good troop'. And even then might not from a camping troop vs a 'craft & cookies' on.

 

While dad might be able to get involved as a GS leader, be warned that he may not be allowed to. Some leaders in GS are a bit 'feminazi' like, and are very much anti-male (or atleast anti-male leader). This will very much depend on your local council, and more importantly the local service team your GS Troop is part of.

 

"I don't know about any non-coed agreement between BSA & GSUSA,"

 

And why should you? Its not common knowledge. I know of it only because I've been told by professionals and volunteers in a position to be aware of it. I frankly wish it was better known, because maybe people would stop beating up the BSA for not going co-ed, which a good deal of the 'blame' is the GSUSA.

 

"but I DO know that one of BSA's pilot Kinder Lion Scout programs is co-ed. "

 

Never heard of this. Is this an official BSA pilot program, or something being tried out in a local council.

 

[epalmer84]

"but I DO know that one of BSA's pilot Kinder Lion Scout programs is co-ed. "

 

Michael- I believe that one of the councils up New York way is testing a kindergarten level program for boys and girls. As I understand it, they are calling it "Lions" (the BSA never throws anything away, they just recycle it). Apparently, it is using some variant of the Learning for Life "Seekers" program.

 

I still have a Scouting/USA decal and the Scouting/BSA strip you wore when you were in the Leadership Corps.

 

Ed(This message has been edited by epalmer84)

[ScoutNut]

" In Girl Scouts, a local service team will run ALL the nearby troops the same way, so you'll have to go farther to try to find a 'good troop'."

 

 

Ummm - No, this is incorrect.

 

A "Service Team" is a group of volunteers, lead by a Service Unit Manager (who is also a volunteer), who manage the paperwork, coordinate some training, & coodinate some area-wide programing for a local geographic area called a Service Unit. Some councils call them Neighborhoods instead of Service Units. Their function is one support, much as BSA's District Committee is.

 

Service Units do NOT "run Troops". Troop Leaders & the girls run their own Troops. Troops in any given area are NOT all the same.

 

 

[Lisabob]

GSUSA, not GSA. I apologize. And I don't doubt that the idea isn't original - but it was the first time I'd heard that variant, myself. Usually what I get is "why can't girls join the cub pack?" and not "why won't the BSA run an all girl program?"

 

I don't know a whole lot about the GSUSA program, other than that I was in it for a couple of years as a youth (yes, I quit when I could stand the cookies and crafts no longer. I joined 4H for a while instead.), and what I hear - repeatedly from other parents with sons in the BSA and daughters in the GSUSA. Of course, this latter source may be biased. But I keep hearing the same things. I'm told that parents and family are not welcomed, unless they sign up as leaders. I'm told that the area council provides poor to non-existent service, support, and training, making being a leader very unattractive. I'm told that the program is weak for younger girls especially. If half of all that is true, it bodes poorly for the program.

 

Unfortunately, telling the parent of a 9 year old to wait until she's 14 and then she can do all this cool stuff under the umbrella of the BSA is not a very appealing answer! As we know with boys, those who aren't involved in scouting at a younger age, or who drop out at a younger age, are far less likely to return as middle schoolers and high schoolers. The same is probably true for most girls.

[nldscout]

epalmer84

Our Lions program is Male only. I understand that one of the test councils are Co-ed, but not us in NY

[emb021]

"Service Units do NOT "run Troops". Troop Leaders & the girls run their own Troops. Troops in any given area are NOT all the same."

 

Maybe so, but that's how its been explained to me. Not being a GSUSA leader, I will defer to those who are.

 

HOWEVER, one thing I've learned about GSUSA vs BSA, is that GSUSA Council are much more 'autonomous' then BSA ones, and this leads to a greater difference from council to council in how things are done. So how you discribe service units may be how its done in your council (and maybe how it should be done), and maybe what I describe is how it is in others.

 

 

I'll give you an example. This was something that was posted to Scouts-L by a father.

 

This father wanted to get his girl into Girl Scouts. But ALL the local troops were 'full', and had waiting lists. This was how the service unit ran that troops. That's how they (the leaders) like it. In the BSA if there were kids in need of scouting, you got them into a troop. I've never heard of troops being 'full' and turning kids away. And if you had so many kids who wanted in, you formed another troop. Not so here.

 

So the father said basically 'how about I form a new troop for all these girls and be the leader' (since maybe the problem was the lack of leaders to form new units).

 

The council or service unit was NOT having that (a male girl scout leader), so they quickly 'found a place' for his daughter. Too bad about all those other girls on the waiting lists.

 

 

 

[Kim near Seattle]

I am a Girl Scout leader, Service Unit Manager, and day camp registrar. I'm also the Advancement Chair for a Boy Scout troop. So, I get to see the positives and minuses of each program, and in my opinion, both programs have their strengths and weaknesses.

 

I know that there are many girls who are frustrated by the lack of outdoor activities in GS. (Of course, many craft-loving girls would quit a camping troop, so you win/lose whichever route you take.)

 

Very few dads volunteer with their daughters, and relatively few moms have the background or interest in doing the outdoors stuff. So who exactly is supposed to take these girls camping? Why aren't the BSA dads volunteering to be outdoor specialists for their daughters' troops?

 

It's easy to say, "oh, GSUSA discourages dads." But somehow, when I ask men how exactly they are discouraged from joining, I don't get very specific answers. (In my area, there are male leaders, and there are even dad/daughter troops, which are all lauded but still rare.) We are desperate for volunteers at our day camps, and we would LOVE to have dads volunteer. The Cub day camps have half men, half women as volunteers. The GS have 75 women and 2 men. What--dads won't take vacation days for their girls, only for their boys?

 

There are GS leaders out there who are trying to do outdoors stuff, not all of them, but some. But it would sure be nice if the families who are complaining would contribute instead of criticize and help give their sons AND their daughters some time and energy.

 

--Kim near Seattle

[Lisabob]

Kim, I apologize if this has turned into a thread where everyone is coming down on the Girl Scouts. That really wasn't my intention when I started it, I just was caught by surprise by this one dad's comment to me. In fairness though, this Dad said he asked to become a girl scout leader for his daughter's troop and was told no. I have no reason to doubt him - and he was looking for a better program for his daughter so it isn't that he couldn't be bothered to spend time with her. Maybe this is a local or regional decision, I don't know.

 

But just as there are great cub scout and boy scout programs I know that there are great girl scout programs too!

[orennoah]

Lisabob:

 

I completely agree with your observations and frustrations.

 

When my daughter saw the great advertures her brother participated in, she wanted that, too. However, the local GSA troop had virtually no outdoor program and its leaders wanted to have absolutely nothing to do with any of us dads, who had offered to assist in camping.

 

The program was, as you state, cookies and crafts.

 

My daughter felt that the GSA program here was, as she so succinctly put in in her young vocabulary, "wimpy."

 

Now, she's only a few months away from 14 and Venturing. It hasn't been fair that she's had to wait this long to have an active outdoor-oriented program.

 

Ranting over.

 

 

[Kim near Seattle]

Local culture can definitely be a challenge, whether for men trying to volunteer in GS or women wanting to do BSA outings.

 

But, any men who are interested in volunteering in Girl Scouts and willing to push a little harder to make that happen, please go beyond the local troop leaders and try to contact someone at council. You might have to be persistent, but you could do some real, long-lasting good.

 

And, if you happen to be in the area northeast of Seattle, contact me. I'll eagerly welcome you!

 

(Lisabob, thanks for the apology, which wasn't needed.)

 

--Kim near Seattle

[ScoutNut]

It is never a bad thing to find out the "other half" does things & to clear up some misconceptions.

 

"HOWEVER, one thing I've learned about GSUSA vs BSA, is that GSUSA Council are much more 'autonomous' then BSA ones, and this leads to a greater difference from council to council in how things are done."

 

I'm not so sure how true this is. From everything I read on forums like this one, every single BSA council out there does things differently from every other BSA council. Some of these things are small & some are rather large. GSUSA councils are the same way. There are a set of National rules & guidelines that they must follow. However individual councils are allowed, in some instances to add to their rules & policies. So, for GSUSA as with BSA, you should always check your with your local council for their local rules, regulations & procedures.

 

 

"This father wanted to get his girl into Girl Scouts. But ALL the local troops were 'full', and had waiting lists. This was how the service unit ran that troops. That's how they (the leaders) like it. In the BSA if there were kids in need of scouting, you got them into a troop. I've never heard of troops being 'full' and turning kids away."

 

Nope, that's NOT how the SERIVCE UNIT ran the Troops. As you stated - "That's how they (the LEADERS) like it." Just as in BSA, where a unit, & it's CO, has the ability to refuse membership in that unit to anyone, a GSUSA Troop has that same ability. Many Troop Leaders will "cap" the number of girls in their Troop at a certain number. This is not because they are mean & vindictive. It is because they truly do not feel that they can handle any more girls. Look at it this way - Your average Boy Scout Troop is 25-30 boys, who meet weekly in some kind of large area (large meeting room, cafeteria, hall, etc), where they have room to have games & meet in different areas in patrols, that is usually provided by an organization. Most Girl Scout Troops meet in a Leaders home. Sometimes they can find other accommodations, but they usually don't have a lot of extra room. Would you want 25 kids meeting in your kitchen every week?

 

 

"And if you had so many kids who wanted in, you formed another troop. Not so here."

 

Actually, I am quite sure that the Service Unit Manager & the Council Rep tried to start other Troops. The problem is however, just like with BSA, if you don't have enough adults willing to volunteer their time to be leaders you can't form another Troop. There are other options for these girls. They can become Juliettes (GSUSA's version of a Lone Scout), attend special interest events, or just attend Council/Service Unit activities.

 

 

"So the father said basically 'how about I form a new troop for all these girls and be the leader' (since maybe the problem was the lack of leaders to form new units). The council or service unit was NOT having that (a male girl scout leader), so they quickly 'found a place' for his daughter."

 

Good for him! His problem here might have come from a number of sources. The local Service Unit Mgr and/or SU Registrar might have felt that GIRL Scouts was for GIRLS only & that men should not be involved & should go join that "other" organization if they wanted to be involved in Scouting. Gee, now where have I heard sentiments like THAT before? Certainly not in BSA!

 

It might also be that your friend's local council has a rule that prohibits men from holding the position of Den Leader (position code 01). They WILL allow a man to register as an ASSISTANT Den Leader(position code 02), & also as the Troop Product Mgr, Troop Registrar, Troop Camping Specialist, Troop Driver, Troop First Aider, etc, etc, etc. If he could not find a (some councils specify unrelated) willing female to be the 01 with him as 02 then a new Troop could not be formed.

 

From the fact that the SU pressured a Troop to take in another girl when the Troop Leader did not originally want to, & did it ahead of other girls in line on waiting lists, suggests to me it was the first scenario. A GSUSA "Old Girl" network at work (as opposed to the BSA "Old Boy" network which freezes out willing women volunteers).

 

 

"Too bad about all those other girls on the waiting lists."

 

Yes, it is a shame. To bad he did not push it with his local council. He might have been able to help form a Troop for them. I know of a number of men who are very active in Girl Scouting. Hopefully he at least helps out with & supports the Troop that eventually did take his daughter in.