Attendance Requirements

[bs1964]

Our troop, 35-45 scouts at any given time, does not have any official attendance requirements. I've thought about it but I just haven't seen a way to make it really work. So many boys get so tied up with sports, band, ROTC, school, etc. that there is always a good reason why attendance is irregular. That said I have applied a participation requirement on our older scout patrol when they were being particularly inactive by refusing to sign off on anything Eagle related until they got their activity level up. It worked but it was a hollow victory because I know there heart wasn't in it.

 

The key is to make them want to come .....

[OldGreyEagle]

"OGE,

Color me confused. I will attribute that to the nature of forum postings, which do not always lend themselves to conveying complete or intended meanings."

 

I will try another run at it, I understand I dont always explain myself as well as I should

 

"Your statement in your last post "...[we]tell scouts who dont come on many activities that to advance they have to be active, the scouts decide by their actions what happens. Those who attend advance, those who dont attend stall. It's their choice." reflects a position that I did not find evident in your post on Gerald Ford/Bill Bradley, which seemed to imply that they would have been too busy with football/basketball to meet scouting participation expectations."

 

What I was trying to say was, if the troops that Ford and Bradley belonged to had attendance requirements, would these two been able to earn Eagle? Gerry Ford was a great friend to Scouting. What if he missed "too many" meeting and activities and was dropped from his troop. Would he still have been the resource to scouting he turned out to be? I didnt mean to question their level of participation, only that they had competing interests and managed them. Could they have managed them in a troop that expects 80% attendance. They had to have had understanding adult leaders.

 

"Also, in another thread on scout spirit, I read into your post that we should measure scout spirit solely against what a scout defines it to be. As I don't recall anything in your post that a SM could/should counsel a scout with low definition of scout spirit to raise his standards and then demonstrate living by them before the SM signed off on the scout spirit requirement, I hope you can see why I was confused."

 

If you read that post on Scout Spirit, I cited what the scouting handbook says about Scout Spirit. The question I was asking, and again I apologize that it was a clumsy wording, if the scout asks you why they have to attend X% of troop activities or they dont "pass" scout spirit and none of the sections explaining Scout Spirit in the handbook says anything about Troops expecting some percentage of attedance, how do you answer them?

 

On page 108 of the scout handbook it says

 

"...How well you live the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your life, though is something for you to judge..."

 

I am not saying what I think, I posted what is written, how do you explain to scouts that you dont follow this statement? If the scout says "I have excellent Scout Spirit" and you counter that he was seen lighting cats on fire, or bullying kids at school then you have a real discussion on your hands.

 

 

"I am glad to read that you do have participation expectations for a scout to advance, which had not been apparent in earlier posts."

 

Where did I ever say that a scout didnt have to participate? They have to fulfill the requirements, I am not sure how I could say it better. They have to know their stuff, they have to do the requirements. I just dont understand why you would drop a scout if he attended 15 out of 20 activities because the troop mandates 80% or 16 out of 20.

 

 

[Beavah]

I just dont understand why you would drop a scout if he attended 15 out of 20 activities because the troop mandates 80% or 16 out of 20.

 

Yah, this is why I think it's a good habit on the forum to start with sharing what each of us actually does in our troop, and how it works. This thread shows what happens when someone doesn't do that, eh?

 

OGE believes that attendance requirements implies that people are tossing kids based on fractions of a percent, eh? But not a single unit with attendance requirements said that was how they operated. By giving real-life descriptions and examples, it's more clear that troops use "attendance requirements" as a means of communicatin' participation expectations and correcting behavioral problems within their unit, not "punishing" hardworkin' scouts.

 

OGE says his unit doesn't have "attendance requirements" and da rest of us hear "oh, gosh, another advancement mill." Then he goes on to describe how they do have very real performance requirements for POR's that include active participation and involvement, with a penalty of bein' removed from the POR. He just doesn't call 'em "requirements"

 

If we all start with da notion that everyone's a good scouter, share what we do (it's plusses and minuses honestly), and listen to what others do (open mindedly), we can learn a lot, eh?

[Eagledad]

I was thinking tho, is there a time when attendance requirements are important, like safety? Our troop does a lot of High Adventure and we usually spend a lot of time preparing for the trips. We usually highly express the participants (adults and scouts) attend the different sessions to get prepared. While I want to say the participation is given in the text of requirements, we have never asked anyone to leave a crew.

 

However, there are several times I think we should have. Problem is you get into the back country and you are stuck. In just about every case I look back on where a Crew member (adult and scout) didnt have good over all experience, it was usually a direct result of not being prepared because they had missed several trek preparation activities. I did get a lot better at training participants and preparing them what was to come, but there is still always that person who has good reasons to miss the preparation.

 

Im more philosophical in my nature and how I approach scouting, so I am rarely hard nosed about things like age, rank and attendance requirements. But experience is showing me that this is one place I think attendance requirements are needed, if for nothing else, life and death.

 

Barry

 

[DugNevius]

yes, that is true. For our high adventure training attendence is required unless previously Ok'd by adult leaders.

[Beavah]

Yah, good point Eagledad.

 

Not just high adventure, either, eh?

 

Troops have to have attendance requirements for prep trips for something like a canoe trip, to ensure swim checks and basic paddling skills. There are often required prep meetin's before cold weather campouts up here in da north, eh? In fact, required prep for any kind of technical trip, even backpackin', is a fine idea.

 

And I bet at least some troops have required orientation nights for new parents.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

The Venturing Crew got a Phimont slot for the 2005 season. Between the youth and the Advisor, they set some standards about what was "ready to go"...

 

Defining standards in clear, commonsense terms, including the why, usually gets better buy-in than the SM or the CC declaring an edict, from my observation.

[Twocubdad]

Having recently been slapped around by the Council advancement committee on this very topic (another long, long story) this is of interest to me.

 

Our troop instituted an attendance policy last fall largely in response to several older Scouts who seemed to be under the impression they had registered as part of the Lone Scout program. Our policy is that to be eligible to advance (yes, we tie attendance to advancement) Scouts must attend 50% of troop meetings and 50% of campouts, each counted separately. Scouts must maintain a similar 70% attendance record if they are in a position of responsibility.

 

As the council advancement chairman told me, "you can't do that. It's absolutely against advancement policy."

 

Well, I don't know about "absolutely." As I told him, the key is how the policy is applied. We use it as a tool to establish our expectation with the Scouts and apply some qualitative measure to what "activly participate" means.

 

A couple points: first, I think 50% is a pretty low standard. A Scout anywhere near 50% attendance isn't likely "actively participating" by any measure. Secondly, we try to be reasonable in our application. A Scout with struggling with problems at home and still at 49% attendance will get the benefit of the doubt. Simiarly, we have a Life Scout a few merit badge requirement away from Eagle who was accepted at the state High School for Math and Technology. We basically put his attendance record on hold. Lastly, we figure the averages on a rolling basis. If you play football and miss every meeting and campout for three months, you can bring your average up to passing by having 100% attendance for the next three months. We're not telling kids that if they play football, or sign up for confirmation class or whatever that they have to drop out of Scouts. All we're saying is that you need to put off advancement or a POR until you have time to focus on Scouting. I don't think that's unreasonable.

 

Bottom line is that active participation is still a requirement for advancement. I don't know how you can evaluate a Scout's performance toward that requirement without considering attendance at some level whether objective or subjective.

[2Eagle]

I'm probably out of sync with most. Some have said the boys are busy...so Scouts drops off the plate first. It drops off because there is no incentive or penalty for not coming to a Scout function. There is in every thing else they choose to do. Why not in Scouts? Don't attend sports practice you won't play, etc. Well...don't attend Scout functions and you won't advance...and it is a "spirit" issue in my mind. Guess I'm selfish. I resent being last...being the first thing that drops off the plate every time. I invest more time than any coach and it's higher quality time. If you want my time then I want your time. I don't want Scouts who attend sometimes. I don't like doing back flips for a kid who thinks he can make Eagle with no committment just so he can check the block. I want boys who want to be Scouts. If you have to play sports year round, be involved in every club your school has to offer and go on every event your church has to offer then fine...it's your choice...sounds like you've chosen not to do Scouts. That's ok. Just don't bother me. I am not going to accomodate every boy, especially for numbers. We have an attendance policy of 70% in all categories. We have provisions for an "out" but it's not a "forever out". To date it hasn't been a problem. I have boys who have given up sports practice and games to go on a Scout event....their choice was something like sitting on a bench or sitting in a canoe. I have others who play sports and never miss a Scout event. I have a few who have made it to 1st Class and may be 1st Class when they turn 18 based on the fact that their attendance is very low and Scouts is not a priority to them. Fine...your choice son. It's a matter of choice and priorities. All of this is made clear to the boys and their parents up front...along with the meeting times and places of other Troops in the area who may better fit their notion of "active". Results? District Troop of the Year for 2006, resident OA Chapter Chief, Lodge Webmaster, Lodge Camping Promotions Chair, Lodge Elangomat Chair, Lodge Treasurer, average of 70% attendance rate on monthly outings, etc.

[Beavah]

Yah, so I was attendin an ECOH for a young man this past weekend. Hes from the troop I reported on earlier in the thread, and I served on his ECOH. Great young man, like almost all Eagles I know. I brought along MTMs questions to ask the older boys durin the evening. Heres my best memory of the answers, based on da notes I could jot quickly.

 

from the SPL

SPL plays soccer and lacrosse, is also in a venturing crew, takes an overload course schedule that includes AP/Advanced everything

What. Thats just stupid. Look, if you schedule things properly and do part of your homework at school, its no big deal. Nobody fails a test because they didnt cram the night before, you fail a test because you were an idiot and didnt do any of the work the rest of the week. I hardly ever miss a meeting.

 

from the Quartermaster

Quartermaster is a band and orchestra member in a nationally recognized program, takes all advanced classes, participates in science and math olympiads, chess club, and writes for the newspaper

Yeah, I think I missed one outing last fall because of band. That was just stupid, they re-arranged the schedule at the last minute. Were all on the PLC, so its easy to plan events around the sports and band schedule most of the time. [The band director] talks tough sometimes about band requirements, but Ive never had a problem getting out of things if I needed to for a prior Scouting commitment.

 

from the JASM

JASM is a band member in the same program, solid 3.7GPA, several other extracurrics that I forgot to write down

Yeah, and why dont they just go out to the outing after the band event? We drive out all the time if the event is at all close.

 

from the PL of the Carrion Crows

PL is a state level wrestler, solid A student

Why did they put the Scout meeting night on the meet nights? Remember back a couple of years ago when we had to switch for something like that? [nods around]. Yeah, sure, if I was wrestling in the meet Id go to that, but Id still try to catch the end of the meeting, and I wouldnt miss any of the outings. That's just lame.

 

another boy

This lad plays water polo in the fall, and swims in the winter. B student, class Vice President. Swim practice is twice a day, 6am and after school. Team is top 8 in the state every year. I couldnt find a football player, so this will have to do.

Yeah, I remember freshman year I was really tired after practice and Id just come home and crash some nights. I think I missed a few meetings that year. No, nowhere near 50%, that would suck. I remember when I was a 7th grader and Bill (the old PL) used to blow off meetings all the time. It really used to piss me off, especially when he got Star. Id never do that. I made sure I scheduled study hall with other friends from the troop and the (swim) team, and I do most of my homework there. Some nights we study after the meeting at the library.

 

What do you feel about attendance requirements?

Got to have them.

Why should we PLC guys put in all this work and then have kids blow us off because they feel like playing Nintendo or something?

Theyre good.

Yeah, theyre good, as long as youre not a complete jerk about it, and make it a bit flexible. I really don't bug the guys in my patrol about it unless it's bad.

I like it. If I didnt have a guideline, Id just get lazy. Thats kinda how I am.

Yeah, but guys, what about Jim (scout with medical issues)?

But thats different. He cant control that. Its not like its his choice or his schedule. When its an activity its your choice, and you should think about whether you can do it before you sign up. [nods]

 

[kb6jra]

OGE brought up an interesting point about Gerald Ford and Bill Bradley. And my answer was iterated by Venividi, boys that are focused and determined will ultimately make time for and exert an effort in the activities they're involved in.

 

I was a High School football player while I earned my Eagle. I was a busy busy person. I attended almost every troop meeting, I missed a couple during the holidays because my family had a seasonal business and I was expected to participate. I attended all but 2 of my troop outings typically in a year. I attended Summer camp each and every year. I was class president and on the speach and debate team. I was many things, but I understood early on that whatever I was involved with I must give it my attention in order to be successful. I earned Eagle because I wanted to and did what it took to get it done. I made arrangements with my football coach to miss some practices in order to serve my troop. He understood that and respected my request. I still gave 100% for the team and 100% for the troop. I'm not trying to toot my own horn here but just saying that when we lay out expectations ahead of time, the youth generally do rise to the occasion.

 

In my unit we've had a couple last minute kids that couldn't seem to give enough time to the unit. Those kids got a good lecture on commitment and involvement and how they had to give back. Then they were given the expectation that they were to provide some service to the unit post 18 years. For the most part the youth in our unit take thier involvement seriously.

 

I'm with 2Eagle as well. I'm selfish. I want to say "If you don't come to the meetings, you don't go on the outings, if you don't go on the outings, you don't earn the rank" but I can't. It's not possible or probable. I understand about there being other activities, I just wish that the Band teacher and the Swimming Coach understood that very same thing sometimes.

[Beavah]

I just wish that the Band teacher and the Swimming Coach understood that very same thing sometimes.

 

Yah, I wonder why it's considered more courteous to blow off the volunteer than the paid instructor? Folks who are paid to be there get to "require" participation while those who give of their own time and resources for free shouldn't "expect" it?

 

 

[Twocubdad]

2Eagle -- can I print your post and put it on our Scout Hut wall? Spot on.

 

It's all about setting priorities and making choices.

[evmori]

Beavah,

 

I would bet the responses you got would be very similar in many units. There are times we forget to ask the boys. Thanks for sharing.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10