Attendance Requirements

[OldGreyEagle]

I was paging through the Scouting Magazine and saw pictures of Gerald Fords Funeral. I was thinking, seeing as Mr Ford played a lot of Football, I wonder if he would last in a Troop that had a percentage attendance requirement? Could Gerry Ford make Eagle in your Troop? What about Bill Bradley? He played a little basketball, I am sure he missed many scouting events yet he is an Eagle.

 

Are attendance requirements chasing away members we will have wanted to have? then again, we will never know

[mtm25653]

We don't have attendance requirements.

 

If we did, what would we say to:

* the state level wrestler, whose wrestling meets are on the troop meeting night for several months each year?

* the marching band members, who have competitions almost every weekend in the fall, attendance at which is mandatory or their grade is dropped (hard to go to a campout when you have a football game Fri night and a competition from 8 am to 6 pm on Sat)

* the other athletes with practice and games on the troop meeting night? (Do you really expect the football player who practiced for 3 hours after school and has homework to make it to every meeting?)

* the high school students taking extremely heavy course schedules? Should they go to the scout meeting if it means they fail a test? (Several of our scouts from last year started college this year with an entire year's worth of credit from AP classes.)

 

We have an unofficial policy that both the SPL and ASPL (or PL and APL) can't both be in band, so there is leadership on fall campouts.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, so Old Grey Eagle and mtm25653...

 

What are your experiences in your unit programs?

 

If you don't have attendance rules or expectations, how do you handle the inevitable "freeloaders" and poor examples that crop up from time to time (and their parents)?

 

What do you feel are the pluses to your way of approaching this? What do you feel are minuses or things you still struggle with?

 

And can yeh tell us a bit about your program so we can understand your approach?

 

(i.e. See first posting )

 

The discussion is always better if we first understand your approach and where you're comin' from, eh?

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[Aquila calva]

One approach may be to encourage all scouts to earn Eagle before they turn 15. This could cut down on unit attendance issues, but could also have some impact on membership at the troop level.

 

Gerald Ford, born July 1913, earned Eagle, Nov. 1927 = age 14

 

Bill Bradley, born July 1943, Eagle class of 1957 = age c.14

 

 

[Venividi]

OGE,

I am trying to understand your comment about Gerald Ford and Bill Bradley. I do not doubt that both missed scouting events. Are you trying to imply that they could not have spent 4 months as a FC scout, 6 mo as a Star, and 6 months as Life where they were able to be active beyond a token effort, or you are trying to convey a different message?

 

I have no way of knowing about these two, but my experience with people that accomplish a lot, is that they ARE able to juggle many things at once, and give enormous focused effort to each of their interests. If I were a betting man, I would bet that both would earn Eagle in troops with participation exectations.

 

Venividi

[anarchist]

OGE (and for that matter mtm25653),

 

with all due respect...Ford?...Bradley? bet if you really checked you would find they were active (any takers?)

 

IMHO -Bogus arguements on all counts...doubt anyone in this forum thread (at least on the side of "active participation", said anything about 100% participation...Football?...3-4 months ditto almost all other sports...so the boy who are really active in other "things" simply have to "arrange" better than average participation during the other parts of the year...same for band or the latin club!

 

 

Certainly you (both) are not saying a boy be given (say) a first class rank that requires being active and making limited campouts and other activities simply because he is on the troop rolls but big into football, then basketball, then wrestling or track and then comes to you and says "gosh...Mr. OGE I just can't seem to be here when you guys meet, but please make me a first class scout...cause I paid my membership".

 

Or a "star" candidate who just didn't find time to be active with the troop for those four needed months because he has been studying late at night and playing the nose harp? ...really?

 

And mtm...Our troop has had high ranking state championship level wrestlers, football players, cross crounty runners and track and field guys, also band and orchestra stars...several boys doing I.B.(International Baccalaureate) or Chambridge program high school graduates(approved and internationally sanctioned)two who have gone on to our national Military Academies and many many farm boys who help with the family farming business- all who seemed to be able to get to a fair number of meetings and outings...so forgive me if I have to say please stop blowing smoke...

 

Sometimes a boy does have to make choices...sometimes he has to make very good use of his time. And yes sometimes if he wants to reach the highest level of scouting he has to make a few sacrifices...

 

Perhaps you would care (if you can)to explain why scouting should be so different than the football team (except of course almost all scouting units are 1,000,000,000% more understanding than sports coaches)? Is there any coach out there that would play a boy who missed 50-60% of the practices and games? Would he be selected for the allstar team?

 

Anarchist

[ASM915]

OGE,

1927 for Ford and 1957 for Bradley. In '27 football was probably from August with practice to maybe early November if they even played that many games back then, probably not 4 weeks of state tourney's either except maybe in Massillon or Canton Oh. As for Basketball in '57, Probably never even dreamed of traveling year round teams like today. That goes for all sports back then.

 

mtm,

Had one that was 4 year varsity swimmer, 1st year swam off season with US SWIMMING, was in the International Club, Spanish Club, German Club, associated with People To People International attending international youth peace forums, Youth group at church, working parttime, serving at Mass's, vol. for the county parks 4 hr's a week in wildlife rehabing and other park events and sat on the village park board as a student member. Sound like a lot.

 

He joined BSA at 15 years and 9 months as a sophomore, informed the SM that he planned on Eagle by the time he was 18 and wanted a time-line set up to do it. He served in POR, made 80% of the meetings, 80% of the camp-outs, all the service projects, OA, received his scouting religious award, actually joined a Crew during all this, ran a 350+ Eagle Project and still found time to date. He didn't even drive until he was 18, his choice.

 

Some troop fathers and adult leaders thought "How dare this boy come in here at this point, with no previous scouting experience and think he's going to get his Eagle." Some people at District had reservations also. The paperwork went through at 10:30 the night before he aged out. The other scouts loved him. He made the camp-outs fun for them, taught the skills better then most and in ways that were different, fun and not boring.

 

He knew what had to be done, when to do it and got it done. Granted there was about a 4-5 month period where he chilled out and didn't push on the merit badges, but kept up with everything else.

 

If the boys really want to do it, yes they can find the time with all their other activities. Football now is the 3rd week of July until the end of Nov. or the 1st of Dec. That leaves 7 months, @ 28 meeting, summercamp, 6 other camp-outs in the off season. During the season games are on Fri. with a rare Sat. game. There is know reason they can't come out after the game or the first thing on Sat. morning

(no practice then) for the rest of the weekend or make at least 1 if not 2 meetings a month.

 

Tonight at RT, it was for the Star and Life scout on what they need to do for Eagle and what District expects. Holding POR, Scout Spirit and yes, you better be active at the troop level, because if your not, they have the right to hold you up. When it has happen in one of our District, been appealed to Council and as far as National, guess what?, they lost. Our DAC notified the boys in the 22 years he has been DAC, a candidate has never been turned down under his watch due to the SM's being good and knowing what needed to be done, don't be the first.(This message has been edited by ASM915)

[DugNevius]

we dont have any troop wide attendence policy or rule based on percentage. To do so would seem counter productive, because kids these days have a lot of things going on, from sports to other clubs, school and for some, bouncing between divorced parents. We do keep an informal attendence and have a senior scout that will touch base with scouts that seem to be missing a lot of meetings or trips, just to see how things are going.

 

The further in the ranks they progress and leadership roles, however, the more it is asked of them, from meetings to trips. There will be times when they cant make it of course, but the SPL and members of his "staff" must lead by example and Showing Up is the first step to anything, especially leading. I ask of my older boys to contact the SPL if they cant make a meeting, and if there is a specific role in which they were on the books to preform (such as a demo) then it is up to them to see it covered.

 

The higher the rank, the more we ask of them. Those boys going for eagle clearly are under stronger scrutiny then a second class scout. They should be at trips and meetings, not just there but activly participating and leading. A scout going for eagle must have an extremely good reason for not being at the eagle project of another. I say to them, "If you're not willing to go to someone elses project for however long he may need you, how can you ask others to do it for you?" never had much of a problem there.

 

But because there is no written policy or rule it gets difficult at times. One scout in our troop has been working toward eagle but he has more of Mailed It In rather then worked hard on it. Last year his attendence at meetings was terrible, he failed to preform his duty in a POR for the entire year, made one trip out of 10 and was going to skip out on summer camp. It just wasnt Eagle scout behavior. So the CC, myself and the advancement chair sat him down and had a long talk about what is expected and that he use the next 9 months before his 18th birthday to evaluate what he really wanted to do and if getting eagle scout was what he wanted then we wanted to see in ACTIVE.

 

These boys are maturing into young men and adults. They have to make decisions and there is not always a wrong answer. With all the things they are involved it they have to decide what they want to do, go to band practice or go to a scout trip and they have to learn time management which is an essential skill to learn and master.

[evmori]

Kids today have a lot going on.

 

I would agree with this statement.

 

If a boy wants to be active in Boy Scouts & advance, he needs to make the decision to show up. If he doesn't he doesn't advance. It's his choice. To become a starter on the football team, you have to be there. To play 1st tuba in the band you have to be there. To advance in Boy Scouts you have to be there. Making the statement "Active = Registered" is just wrong.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

My son's troop doesn't have any established attendance requirements (at least, that any current leaders know about). One result of this is that we have at times advanced boys with poor attendance, even boys who didn't perform their PORs very well at all. On the other hand, if we had rigid rules, there would be a few boys who would have had problems advancing because of sports or other activities, who, in my judgment, are good Scouts who contribute as much as they can.

I guess my take on this is that at the least there must be some expectations of what level of participation is required for time in a POR to count for advancement. For a boy with a POR to fail to show up lets down the other boys, and shouldn't be rewarded. If you're going to take the step of denying or delaying advancement to a boy for such a reason, it seems to me that it's essential that he know what is required of him in advance. Whether that's a rule of thumb for everyone, or a negotiated expectation with each scout, is not what's most important.

[OldGreyEagle]

My point was Ford and Bradley had to have missed some Scouting activities when they played sports. Could they have met the attendance requirements of your troop or would they have been asked to make a choice, sports or scouts.

 

And the fact we are talking Ford and Bradley scares me, where are the 25-40 year old Eagle scouts who are also athletes, why don't we hear about them, or is it because it's one thing or the other?

 

And where in the history of the forum have I ever said a scout doesnt have to do the requirements? Where have I ever said the scout advances even if he doesnt know his stuff?

 

In the Troop I serve we dont tract attendance any more than to tell scouts who dont come on many activities that to advance they have to be active, the scouts decide by their actions what happens. Those who attend advance, those who dont attend stall. It's their choice. Scouts who have PORs have the position explained to them at the earliest onset and then progress tracked, if they aren't doing the job, they get warned, counseled, removed. I am not sure where anyone who has read any of my posts would think I was in favor of degrading the program. We offer the program, those interested will take advantage of the opportunities, those who arent, wont and the interested ones will advance

[BrentAllen]

OGE writes: " where are the 25-40 year old Eagle scouts who are also athletes, why don't we hear about them, or is it because it's one thing or the other?"

 

They are still out there, but are getting harder to find. But don't blame Scouting for the problem.

 

In the past, you could miss a practice to attend a Scouting event - no big deal. In today's ultra-competitive world, coaches (who must win at all cost) don't cut any slack. Here, our 3rd, 4th and 5th graders play county rec football. They will practice 3 nights a week and play one game. They are told if they miss one practice, they don't get to play. The sad thing is many of these kids are getting burned out on the sports, and stop playing by middle school, and won't play in high school. They are destroying their best athletes, and either don't see it or don't care. Of course, by then, the boy has quit Scouting as well, and won't get back in.

Scouting is the most accomodating activity a boy will participate in.

 

From my view, if a Scout has other activities that block him from attending meetings, as long as he lets leadership know, they can work with him. He MUST be able to perform the duties of any POR he has. If he can't, he doesn't need to accept the position. We want well-rounded youth, especially as Eagles.

Some posters here may be talking about boys who don't have a real conflict, but just decide they don't want to go to a meeting tonight, and do this habitually. Those types need to recognize they have an obligation to their Patol to show up and carry some weight.

[Venividi]

OGE,

Color me confused. I will attribute that to the nature of forum postings, which do not always lend themselves to conveying complete or intended meanings.

 

Your statement in your last post "...[we]tell scouts who dont come on many activities that to advance they have to be active, the scouts decide by their actions what happens. Those who attend advance, those who dont attend stall. It's their choice." reflects a position that I did not find evident in your post on Gerald Ford/Bill Bradley, which seemed to imply that they would have been too busy with football/basketball to meet scouting participation expectations. Also, in another thread on scout spirit, I read into your post that we should measure scout spirit solely against what a scout defines it to be. As I don't recall anything in your post that a SM could/should counsel a scout with low definition of scout spirit to raise his standards and then demonstrate living by them before the SM signed off on the scout spirit requirement, I hope you can see why I was confused.

I am glad to read that you do have participation expectations for a scout to advance, which had not been apparent in earlier posts.

[mtm25653]

I've had at least one son in the troop I mentioned for the past 15 years.

 

Over that time, I estimate 15-20% of the scouts have earned Eagle (17 in the past 12 years). The troop has ranged in size between 20 and 40 boys - we just got 14 new boys (12 Webelos, plus 2 friends) which brings us to a new high of 44. This year's only senior earned his Eagle, last year 6 of 7 did. A lot of the boys get their Eagle senior year, and probably completed their POR a couple of years before. Right now the SPL is 17, the ASPL is 15, patrol leaders 13-15, troop guide 16 - all attend almost every meeting and trip. There are another 2 boys who are 16 - they both miss time for sports, but are on track to earn their Eagle in the next year, plus one who may stay or may drop out (brother is the latest Eagle, which may encourage him to stay.)

 

Historically, some of the older boys attend almost every meeting and trip through their 18th birthday. Some miss several months a year for school commitments, a few miss a lot of time because they have jobs (but most have stayed as active as they could and earned Eagle), some miss occasionally based on school commitments.

 

We have a high adventure program (Philmont this summer, hiking the AT and Philmont last summer, Northern Tier the summer before, 3 crews at Philmont the summer before that, plus sailing, rock climbing, canoeing on a regular basis). Some trips have more boys of all ages than others, some have fewer older boys (mainly camporees - they've been there, done that).

 

We haven't had a problem. I've said it before, offer a good program that the boys are excited about (and that they plan), keep contact with the cub scouts so you maintain the age range in the troop, and the boys will stay active, learn a lot and advance.

 

We do have an semi-annual patrol competition. Points are awarded for attendance, wearing your uniform, rank advancements, merit badges, quality of cooking and cleanup at campouts, and maybe a few other categories. Usually the new scout patrol wins the competition in September (there are a lot of advancements in those first 6 months). They are split into the regular patrols in September, and one of those patrols (a different one every year since we started) wins in February. Sometimes the point total has come down to attendance at that February Court of Honor. The prizes are either individual (sleeping bag liners, compasses) or for the patrol (new patrol cook kit).(This message has been edited by mtm25653)

[DugNevius]

I would think that most of the pro athletes did little else in their lives other then playing that sport since a very young age.

 

MtM- totly unrelated, but how would it be possible for your troop to attend philmont 2 years in a row when there are limitations against that?