Scout Spirit... Redux

[scottteng]

"Developin' character takes time and effort. It doesn't happen on a schedule, nor does it happen just because a boy finished learnin' all his knots. In a lot of ways, buildin' character is the hardest of any of the requirements, and takes a bit longer."

I quote because someone said it better than I and I don't think it can be tied to attendance percentage. I am also hesitant to tie it to what the boys say because they get adolescent attitude and tell you I don't want to be here but my Dad or Mom makes me come I really am too cool for scouts. When given the option not to continue they change their tune. They hate scouts because they have to give up their video games to go on the outing when they get back it was the most exciting fun thing they ever did. I am sure most here have been through this with a scout or too or had the scout who shows for everything causes no trouble but ends up in serious trouble or even worse as a suicide. I will go with the character building measure and it is tough but arbitrary percentages on attendance are not the answer. I have in my possession the letter from the national advancement committee forwarded by our district advancement chair that these percentage attendance criteria are not to be used to define active or involved in any definition of scout spirit. I Quote " Showing "scout spirit" means being a good example to one's peers "Scout Spirit" is not to be interpreted as having to attend a certain percentage of scouting events but rather how by example a Scout brings out the best in others as a reflection of his own character and attitude,"

 

[kb6jra]

When I discuss this with the people in my unit, there's always some confusion, mostly with the adults. Adults want to make conditions on Scout Spirit such as attendance, service project hours, etc. I'm guilty of this as well, at least I have been in the past.

 

Scout Spirit is living the ideals of Scouting in your every day life. We don't ask boys to hold up the Scout Sign when they see a teacher want's a room quiet. We don't ask them to wear thier uniform to show "scout spirit" as as ASM of mine once asked...We determine if they've been displaying Scout Spirit in thier actions and deeds and that's as far as that goes...and that determination is generally left up to the Scoutmaster to deal with during the SM Confrence. That's as good a place to discuss it IMO.

 

The attendence is an issue close to my heart as well. We use the requirement "be active in your troop and patrol for x months" to enforce an 80% policy. The troop committee came up with 80% of all events as a number to strive for when determining if the boy had fulfilled the requirement. There is generally no guidelines given for this, nothing quanitative anyway. 80% attendance is not an absolute, just a guideline in determining if the requirement is met. This is another of those spin off topics I think.

 

 

[SueM]

Here's my senario and it really only touches on the whole issue...my question will be at the bottom..

 

In an nutshell (there's too much to get it all in!) Scout will be 17 in August..could have been an Eagle before he was 14. Comes to nearly all meetings campouts and most activities, so can't fault him there, however, has been a continual behavioral issue since day one at them all...he is a bully, is manipulative, has no respect for anyone (especially ME) and has made it his whole job in life to harrass my son, who is the current SPL. As a matter of fact, he and a few of the other boys deliberately voted for him so that they could run all over him and cause him issues. He was the last SPL and I could not teach him anything about leadership because he did not want to learn it and fought me the whole time. Now, I have no "blindness" where my son is concerned..I am the first to say he is not the most capable leader in the world..has trouble getting simple jobs done etc. but he was willing to step up and try the job that no one else would do.(I talked someone else into running with him at the last minute so that they could have a choice). I did not want him to run for SPL since I know it's always harder being the SM's son in ANY job and I knew what they had in mind for him and one of the other boys' father came to me after the election and TOLD me that this was what they had done! This whole group of boys just sits and watchs EVERY thing he does so that they can criticize him and then tell me I'm "not fair" because I dont' make him do things. (this is NOT true..if anything I'm HARDER on him then the others, because I understand the position it puts him into, but I can get after him more quietly since I know him better and know not only what he is and isn't capable of. Of course..they don't see or hear this so they think I never do it. He is however trying to the best job that he can, according to his own capabilities...which are not the same as theirs!

 

Anyway..this scout has basically told me and other adults to our face that he does not care about living by the Scout Oath and Law..and he has not shown me a shred of evidence over the past 5 years that he views scouting as anything more than a camping club or social time. He has great natural leadership ability but it's always used in the wrong direction..does not WANT to learn to use it properly either! The only GOOD thing that I can say about this scout is that he is helpful sometimes. Talking to him does no good...talking to parents does no good as he has about the same lack of respect for mom too. I/we can't run a decent meeting anymore due to the disruption.

 

Now, he has enlisted MORE scouts in his plan to cause issues with my son..several weeks ago, while I was involve with the Committee meeting, the boys were trying to plan some events for a campout. One of the other adults watched as this scout and another started tag teaming my son..asking him questions that he would have no way of knowing the answers to, just to embarrass him or to prove how "inept" he is..then they pulled a couple of other scouts into it too. The adult came to me and told me what was going on and I addressed it with one of the boys at that time..as he was the one we caught.

 

So..here is my question..How do I morally signing off on the scout spirit for this scout?....if and when he comes to me with a possible Eagle project?? I have warned him several times already that if he does not change his attitude...that I will not do it. He has made it clear that he hates me..does not respect me..has not intentions of changing..thinks -I- am the problem. (mainly because I'm trying to turn the troop around from being adult led and they don't (and don't WANT to) understand why I've changed some things from the way they were in the past. His behavior though is impacting any progress that I'm trying to make in the troop towards the goal of becoming boy led! I have bent over backwards trying to give him the benefit of the doubt...we have told him that he is welcomed to find another troop.

[evmori]

SueM,

How can you morally sign-off on Scout Spirit? You can't. And if you do you would be setting a dangerous precedent.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[SueM]

Ed,

 

That's exactly how I feel! To compound matters even worse..I've got the ex-SM who has recently returned and is now the CC who tells boys that all they need to do is (basically) "pretend" to get along with me until after they get their Eagle and then they can leave and be done with it!! He hates to see boys "get this far" and then not get over the final hurdle..and I have had several discussions with him already over these attitudes!!

[Kudu]

SueM,

 

Start by telling this problem Scout the truth: a BSA Troop is NOT "boy-led," it is adult-led. BSA adults do not believe in B-P's Patrol System, so they took all the evaluation powers away from the Patrol Leaders and gave them to themselves. BSA leaders call their Patrol Leader powers "Adult Association."

 

Simply put:

 

(B-P's Patrol System) minus (Adult Association) = BSA Patrol Method.

 

"One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction" (Baden-Powell, from the article "Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918).

 

Kudu

 

[BrentAllen]

"One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol."

 

Appoint?? Who is doing the "appointing?" I thought PL's were supposed to be elected by the boys in the Patrol. Maybe the BSA is closer to B-P's ideas than some here think....

[Kudu]

BrentAllen writes:

 

Appoint?? Who is doing the "appointing?" I thought PL's were supposed to be elected by the boys in the Patrol. Maybe the BSA is closer to B-P's ideas than some here think....

 

Brent,

 

In Baden-Powell's Patrol System the Scoutmaster appoints the boy with the best natural leadership skills, as was the practice in his military patrols upon which Boy Scouting is modeled. This is also true of leadership development in private industry upon which BSA Wood Badge is now modeled.

 

Patrol elections are a BSA invention dating back to the period before the BSA used the "Patrol Method," when the Handbook for Scout Masters advised "Scout Masters" to keep their Patrol Leaders completely powerless and PLs had only a symbolic "team captain" function.

 

BSA elections have evolved into Patrols as "Leadership Development" mills where the Scoutmaster trains the most popular boys how to be "leaders."

 

Patrol elections may be more "democratic" but Patrol Leaders in B-P's Patrol System have more actual power without Senior Patrol Leaders and the "Adult Association" Method with its Scoutmaster Conferences, Boards of Review, Scout Spirit requirements, and other forms of second-guessing elected boy-leadership.

 

"To get first-class results from the Patrol system you have to give the leader a real free-handed responsibility. If you only give partial responsibility you will only get partial results" (Baden-Powell, Aids to Scoutmastership, WB edition, 1944).

 

Kudu

 

[Eagledad]

>>Patrol elections are a BSA invention dating back to the period before the BSA used the "Patrol Method," when the Handbook for Scout Masters advised "Scout Masters" to keep their Patrol Leaders completely powerless and PLs had only a symbolic "team captain" function.

 

BSA elections have evolved into Patrols as "Leadership Development" mills where the Scoutmaster trains the most popular boys how to be "leaders."

[Beavah]

Yah, that was quite a thread hijack there, eh?

 

Gettin' back to SueM.

 

SueM, I think you have to recognize that our purpose in scouting is building character, and the Advancement Method only works for us if the kids we hold up to others for public recognition and awards exemplify what we're tryin' to teach. So as SM, you have to be true to that in considerin' signoffs for any awards. What you do sets the tone and expectations for the next round of boys.

 

But it's fair to remember that you changed things out from under the current older boys, and teenagers are a very conservative lot. They want it to be the way it was, because that's what they grew up in and learned how to operate in. So a touch of understandin' and mercy is also OK. Only expect 'em to get half way to what you hope an Eagle will be in your troop in the years to come.

 

Now, don't take this the wrong way, but it seems from your post like you've got a "bad dynamic" goin' on with that bunch of older boys. Do you have a "tough" male ASM or dad who can take the lead in dealing with this boy and his band of ruffians? A male role model they will honestly respect and look up to a bit, and who isn't caught in playing "mom" to the SPL in her heart? A good cop to your bad cop? I think you should find one.

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

Sue,

 

What Beavah said.

 

I would also consult, before the sun sets, with:

- the District Advancement Chairman

- the Unit Commissioner

- the COR

- the Committee Chair.

 

If the intent is to deny this Scout Eagle for cause, then your ducks have to be in a row.

 

The reasonable SM and CC would expect:

- An appeal at least to the Council Advancement Committee, if not National.

- A complaint "of the record" to the Chartered Partner.

[SueM]

Beavah,

 

I do understand that concept..which is why I'm having such an issue with what to do. I've watched quite a few scouts who did not deserve Eagle (IMO) get it before I took over and I want to hold the boys to a higher standard than that.

 

This is not a new issue with this scout..every adult MALE leader who has been in the troop since we've been there (these boys and my son came up through the pack together) has TRIED to do something with this scout..none have succeeded! Most have wanted to strangle him, and one actually DID grab him by the shirt once after being provoked! (another story!) And it's not just an issue of patience because we all have been MORE than patient with him...to the point where other parents ask why he's still there! He's only still here now due to my patience and willingness to understand that they don't understand or like change and I want to give them the opportunity to grow!! All those people who John in KC suggests talking to are MORE than aware of the situation...most have seen it with their own eyes over time...our DC actually pulled the scout aside at an event because he saw the way he was acting and layed down the law with him..it did no good. District Advancement Chair advised me to send him packing. Current CC was ex-SM who I took over from..he tells scout to "pretend" to get along with me until he gets me to sign paperwork for his Eagle.

 

I'm not intending to deny him Eagle for cause, but we have spelled out what changes we need to see for him to get there behavior wise and if he's not willing to do that that's his choice. He can always vote with his feet too and go to finish up with another troop! They all know though that no other troop in area would put up with this stuff.

 

That all said...he did come and make an attempt last night to behave better so that's all I wanted to see and I was pleased to see it. I'm trying my best to work towards a good outcome. One of the things that I'm considering is after the next elections...just pulling my own son from the meetings and let him concentrate on working on his remaining couple of MB's and Eagle project away from the troop setting. He's put his time in and as much effort as he's capable of doing with his own issues of ADHD and lack of social skills..He doesn't need this garbage all the time either. He can still participate in campouts, projects and activities..and take away their "excuse" for doing things somewhat too.

[Lisabob]

If this young man has been doing this for five years then I doubt there is much that you, or anyone else, can do at this point to make him stop. Either he is going to come to a realization on his own or he isn't. I think you give it one last, good faith effort though. You bring in his parents, another ASM who will back you, the COR, and the scout. You lay down the rules. "Continue this behavior and we will send you home." Maybe require a parent to attend all events with him. Hand him a list of other troops in the area and invite him to contact them if he gives you a hard time. But if these other troops wouldn't put up with it, why are you? It sounds to me that while he may have checked off most of the boxes, he is still a long ways away from being an Eagle. Make sure you explain that to him, his parents, and your CC.

 

The CC is an ex-SM of your troop for a reason, right? People wanted to see some change and you're the one they chose to do it, right? Maybe get a UC or the COR to talk with him and remind him (perhaps not so gently) of this. As SM you work "for" the committee but you, not the CC, are in charge of the boy-side of the program. Chances are good he knows what he's doing to undermine you and needs to be told in clear terms to knock it off.

 

As for your own son, that's truly unfortunate. I hope you'll be able to find a way to work things out so that he can continue in relative peace. Of course I don't know you and your son but I think pulling him from the meetings and only allowing him to attend camp outs might send the wrong message though, possibly to him and definitely to other boys.

[BrentAllen]

SueM,

If this kid is as bad as you say, and I was his SM, he would have been gone a long time ago. Sounds like this kid, if he gets his Eagle, is going to be giving Scouting a bad rap for years to come.

 

I can hear his acquaintances now "How did that guy ever make Eagle?" Unfortunately, the next questions asked are usually what Troop is he from, and who was his SM?

[SueM]

Lisabob,

 

As far as the scout goes..mom and dad are well aware of things...Mom is tired of trying to get through to him hereself..she was there last week when we had the discussion with him and his brother about the fight they had the week before. Dad is a good guy..has gone through all training but is gone for months at a time on his job and I don't think he is totally sure the BSA program is "workable"...thinks that we expect too much from the boys!!

 

Ex-SM stepped down because he was burned out..we looked for someone else for at least 18 months and no one would step up. I finally made the decision (with the encouragement of other adults!) to do it as I understood the changes that we needed to make and just couldn't stand by and watch things anymore. He's now CC because he now had the time again and wanted to become involved again and our CC..who was my mentor..had also been trying to step aside for at least a year and we had no one to take over there. We felt that this was a good place to put ex-SM but it's still hard to contain him! I have had at least 4-5 very candid discussions with him so far as to how things he is doing is affecting the troop and asked him to stop! He means well and I do understand that it's just a natural reaction for him to just come back and try to "pick up where he left off" 3 years ago..I am trying to solve as many issues as I can on my own without outsiders..but do have several people (my UC and ADC) who I can go to who are already aware of the situation and ready to step in.

 

As far as my son goes..I think he's tired of things too and ready for a break. Even if it's just a couple of months...it might do him good.

 

Anyway...I appreciate all the feedback. I've been so frustrated lately it's not funny. I've poured my heart into the troop and it has not been easy for me.