When did the Schism Occur and How do we fix it?

[OldGreyEagle]

I am suer it's because the time of year, the traditional time for crossovers, but just when did the great Schism between Cubs and Boy Scouts occur and how do we fix it? We have had threads about how dull Boy Scout meetings are from a Cubs standpoint, and how Boy Scouts is so much different from Cubs and how Cubs can get lost in the first few months of being a Boy Scout and I have to wonder what the heck is going on. If this is such a problem, it can't be due to a few people not being trained. Why is this such an issue? I admit I am many years removed from Cubs, but when did it become a we versus they, Cubs Vs Boy Scout proposition? ANd maybe most importantly, how do we fix it? In the word of Walt Kelley, we have met then enemy, and we are they

[AntelopeDud]

I think that the schism occurs during the Webelos years. Kids are alot more advanced, savy and smarter earlier than they were 20 years ago. By the time Cub Scouts become Webelos, they have dne all the gluing and pasting of paper that they want. Nowadays, Kids this age really need to get outside more and become far more hands on and challenged. I'm amazed at the number of Webelos who cross over and have not camped very much at all. In fact, you could count on one hand how many times they have camped.

 

I believe that we need to get the Webelos outside more, Webelos Leaders need to implement the Denner system properly and go to training to learn how to utilize a Den Chief. All of these things take more commitment on the part of the Webelos Den Leaders, who are already extremely busy, but perhaps Pack Committee could create a position for Webelos to Scout transition and help with this. But they all will begin acclimating a young Webelos Scout to how Boy Scouts operate. More and more I see that the parents are getting worn out and the Webelos themselves are getting worn out with the whole program. It's not challenging enough for them.

 

-AD

 

[WDL Mom]

Hi,

 

I taught High School for 7 years. I wondered what in the heck those teachers were doing at the Middle School! Why if they would only do this and that, the problems we have would be solved! I have spent the last 12 years teaching Middle School. Now I KNOW what they do! Now if only those Elementary teachers would get on the ball...

 

The schism is natural, due to different programs and ages. The cure IMHO is building relationships. Relationships between the scouts and between the scouters. Sending a den chief to a Pack is a start. Scouters need to network across the program, not just in their "area". Is it easy? No. Would it work? I think it might. Look at Troops that have strong ties with a Pack due to having the same CO.... Could Troops be "assigned" a sister Pack to "advise and mentor"? Or would this be forcing the issue? Just some thoughts...

[Lisabob]

OGE I sure don't know when all this started? But it is pervasive, I'll agree. Just the other day I was "informed" by another scouter (finger pointed in my face) that "you cub leaders" shouldn't be "allowed" to "ruin" woodbadge by attending! Er, ahem, anger management class anyone? Misplaced sense of ownership? Lack of focus on the heart of the program? Although in this particular case I suspect my delightful sparring partner really meant "you women." Different issue/thread though.

 

I'll be honest, there's a lot that many cub leaders could gain from networking with scouters in other parts of the program and as a former cub leader I include myself in that group. In fact this is one of the most valuable items I took from attending WB as a cub leader. I got to know some really excellent troop leaders (and a couple of crew advisers too) who freely and generously shared their views of scouting and of their program with those of us who didn't have personal experience as boy scouts to draw upon. Likewise I was able to share with them some of the ups and downs of working with cubs that they may have forgotten or not recognized due to their own lack of experience in that area.

 

I have a good friend who decided, as a bear leader, to do OLS for these reasons - she wanted to start building a scouter network that included more than just other cub leaders, so that she'd have a better understanding of the program her den would be joining a few years down the road. Well and she wanted to do OLS for its own sake too, don't get me wrong. By the way her boy joined our troop recently and I think she'll be signing on as an ASM - and a good one too - before much longer.

 

So I think we need more opportunities to talk scouting across unit and program lines. Hmm. Like this forum provides! (Thanks!) And you know what? I'd kind of like to see us re-imagine our district roundtables to make this more probable. How many of us have said that we find this forum more useful than any roundtable for exactly these types of reasons?

[Its Me]

"Just when did the great Schism between Cubs and Boy Scouts occur and how do we fix it?"

 

I don't know when occured. Maybe its always been there. But there is a poor attitude towards each other. I say that the meetings look dull and Boy Scout leaders right back, thumping their chest on how they teach boys to be men not little childern to cut and paste. That's an insult to all cub leaders, but I suspect this is a rampant attitude within the Boy Scout leadership. That their job is more important.

 

How do we change this? Proper training to tame inflated egos would be a start, but more importantly the jump between cubs to boys should seem more like a step than a leap. More cub/boy interaction. The asumption that every pack has an equal troop under the same charter is certainly false for my organization. The troop and pack leadership don't talk, the C/O is invisable. Councils need to provide opportunities to mix cubs with boys.

 

Edited to add:

I think more Cub Scout leaders should take wood badge. In fact I would say its may be more important to take wood badge as a cub leader than as as boy scout leader. I took woodbadge when I was a bear leader I think it was the perfect time to take it. Either as a bear or as a Webelos I leader would be ideal.

 

(This message has been edited by Its Me)

[evmori]

Just when did the great Schism between Cubs and Boy Scouts occur and how do we fix it?

 

I think it occurred when kids became involved in so much they needed a spreadsheet to figure things out. WEBELOS to Boy Scouts was once a natural progression. Now it seems parents don't want to commit to the time & there are way more things for boys to do! The natural progression is gone.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[EagleInKY]

I'm not sure, but it does seem more pronounced than it used to be. I see two types of issues - and we've spoke about both of them in recent threads.

 

1) Webelos that are just "older Cub Scouts", that don't have an appreciation of the outdoors. They spend lots of time completing their 20 Activity pins, but don't spend a lot of effort transitioning to Boy Scouts. A lot of these kids still fear camping and the outdoors, and certainly haven't interacted that much with their troop.

 

2) Webelos that go ahead and do "Boy Scouting" on their own. I've had a few come up and say, what's the big deal about Boy Scouting, we've been camping as a den since these guys were Tigers... Now, Baloo rules notwithstanding, these guys tend to look at scouts and think "what's the big deal?".

 

 

I haven't seen a perfect model yet, but I think I liked it better when Webelos wasn't stretched out to a two year program. The primary gist of the program "back then" was a staging for Boy Scouts. There was never a question about it. Everything you did in Webelos was to prepare you to step into the green uniform. Now, heck, they go ahead and wear the green uniform. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it certainly is a challenge.

 

******************* brief hijack

We have a group of Webelos that are probably going to another troop. Why? The primary reason, as I've been told, is that we don't do "family camping" in the troop. Now, the interesting part is I don't think any troop's around here do it either. So I'm not sure what they think their getting. My guess is that the SM of the other troop gave them an answer to the question that was more palpable, such as telling them that dads could sleep with their sons.

 

The other thing that this group is doing that I don't like is deciding to go as a group. I've said this before, I don't like that. I understand the desire for boys to be with their friends. But if 4 of 6 boys don't like high adventure, they won't like a high adventure troop. If Monday nights are bad for two of them, going to a troop that meets on Monday isn't going to work well for them....

 

***************** hijack ended

[Stosh]

11 Webelos "crossed-over" at their Blue-Gold banquet. 6 joined our troop and the other 5 were done with scouting.

 

When I asked what was going on, it would seem the Webelos den leader wasn't encouraging the boys to go on. All 11 were Arrow of Light. That pack needs a new Webelos leader.

[Beavah]

Yah, we Americans tend not to look to other nations for ideas, eh?

 

But one of the big differences between US Scouting and Scouting in other places is the artificial split between levels. In a lot of places, a "troop" runs age 6-26, and you progress in your troop through the equivalents of cubs, and webelos, and scouts, and ventures, and rovers and into leadership all within your "troop." No transition, no needin' to go "find" a troop after webelos unless you're unhappy.

 

Yah, they all have some fall-off in membership with age, so ventures and especially rovers gets a bit thin, and might benefit from some coordination between two "troops." But it's nothin' like our "schism", eh?

[Its Me]

 

The schism can be seen right here in this thread 7 replies with 4 boy scout leaders blaming cub scout leaders for their losses.

 

Stop blaming cub scouts for ailments in the boy scout program. Boy scouts shouldn't even need a "prepared" scout. So how could we prepare them wrong?

 

The schism comes from frustration on the part of the boy scout leader who loses a five year scout soon after joining boy scouts. He blames the previous progam or the implentation of the previous program on that loss. The cubber camped too much and stole their magic, we camped too little and didn't prepare, we did patrols, we didn't do patrols. The best was "boy scouting isn't about fun meetings, lower your expectations cubber and get with the program".

 

The schism is a blame game. Stop blaming the cubbers for boy scout woes and the schism goes away.

 

On the camping too much theory, I don't think that is possible. Considering that the loses are as high as they are in Boy Scouts, if we limited cub scouts to camping once a year, or no camping until boy scouts, then BSA the organization would lose out on a lot of boy/youth and family bag nights. That would be a shame.

 

[mtm25653]

What schism?

 

My son's troop got an entire Webelos den (I think 10 boys) last Saturday. They are all already signed up to go to summer camp. They are going camping with the troop in 2 weeks. They were very active in their Webelos den and pack, and are ready to be boy scouts.

 

My pack crossed an entire Webelos den (9 boys) into another troop last Sat as well. (Pack started this year - Webelos had been active in pack above before this year.) They are going on a trip with the troop to Gettysburg (from NC) this weekend. Boys were active in the Webelos den and pack, and are ready to be boy scouts. I believe they are also all signed up for boy scout camp.

 

4th grade Webelos in both packs are active, and ready to take leadership in the pack. The Web I den in my pack are going to Webelos resident camp this summer - their den leader is an ASM in the troop.

 

Do the leaders in your pack and troop communicate? Do the Webelos visit the troop multiple times during 4th and 5th grade? Do the Webelos get your troop newsletter, so the boys and parents know what what to look forward to? Is the boy scout troop doing exciting things? If so, there's no schism. There's just a great program for the boys. (Each of the 2 troops has about 30 boys - between them there were 8 Eagles in 2006. One is going to Northern Tier this summer, the other to Philmont.)

[SemperParatus]

Maybe I am just blind or am in a very happy place, but there is no schism issues in our pack and troop. If there was one, I would buy a schism trap and catch that darn thing before it could do any damage.

 

I suspect our fortune is that so many of our scouters have a foot in each that they have a clear understanding of the natural progression of both the boys and the programs, and are able to share that with the other parents.

[jr56]

I don't think Cub Scouts is bad. It is a different program than Body Scouts, and that is good, because it's designed for younger boys.

I think alot of Weblos don't get the message, they think that Boy Scouting is just going to be more Cub Scouting. Plus, there are some that are really into Cub Scouting, but don't want to go camping.

Then there is another big group that is so into sports, that they just don't want to devote any time to Boy Scouts.

I guess better communication between the troop and pack would help somewhat, but, I feel alot of the attrition is due to the way the world works these days, and 100% of all Weblos are never going to go into Boy Scouts no matter what we do.

[scoutldr]

Near as I can tell, it was 1930.

 

See

 

http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/hist-scouting1930.html

 

 

[awesome1_in_cc]

I'm pretty slow and don't even know what "Schism" means but it sounds bad. I am a recently retired CM and am now a "rookie" SM for a troop that was on life support a year ago. As a Webelos Den leader I started to try to prepare the scouts for what was to come. We used the denner system, adopted a "patrol name" and I even had them build their own "patrol boxes" as part of their Craftsman pin. As second year WB's they pitched their own tents, cooked and cleaned-up after themselves. Among many of my WB parents I was the "crazy man" who made little Johnny clean-up after himself until they attended the Troop overnighter and the light came on.

 

But with all that said the best job at easying the transition was on the Troops side. The CC of the troop and Youth leaders put together a program called "Scouts teaching Scouts" to aide in the transition process and its has turned out to be a great recruiting tool.

 

Long Story short - The program is designed for the youth leaders to teach 4 Webelos Activity pins. During the indoor part of the program they teach 2 pins at scheduled Troop meetings. During the Outdoor portion of the program they teach 2 more during Troop Webelos camp-outs. BTW- This program is open to Webelos I and II's!!!

 

I can't tell you how this will work out long term but during its first year we doubled the size of our troop in two weeks recently. It seemed I was attending "cross-overs" every night but I'm not complaining.

 

Now we have the same challange as everyone else, we have to fullful "the Promise" while competing against bordum, sports, girls, etc...