How to get an adult over the Webelos III mindset

[msnowman]

Nephew's SM is a pretty even handed guy. The troop is quite young right now, so he has to mentor more than he might in a troop with older boys around to do the teaching (the oldest active in the troop is a just turned 14yo 8th grade Life Scout), but he doesn't lead - the SPL does that, with varying degrees of success (as is fairly typical in boy lead imho). However, he isn't always able to be present for every camping trip or camporee. This means that another adult or two (always at least two) gets pressed in to service or straight up volunteers to go.

 

One of these people is the Troop CC (also the Pack CC). The SPL is her grandson and she doesn't trust him to lead. She challenges every decision he makes...sometimes (at least to outside eyes) belittling him in front of his peers. She treats the boys in the troop all like Webelos III's. She cooks for them, cleans up after them, starts their fires, etc because she doesn't want the younger boys (6th graders) to fail.

 

The 3 oldest boys (PL, Nephew and SPL) complain about her to me, but won't go to SM because they are afraid he'll think they are tattling on her. My advice to them would be easy if it were a Scout they were having problems with (go to your Patrol Leader, SPL, SM - in that order). But since it is another adult they have an issue with (and one of the boys is related), that advice doesn't seem to fit the bill as well. The older boys don't want to go to Scout camp with the Troop because they don't want to be under her leadership. They would rather wait and go to camp as part of the provisional troop.

 

My role in this? Not much, I'm CM for the Pack, but that isn't relevent to this. I'm also a MC for the Troop, so that might be a little more relevent. Otherwise I'm Nephew's taxi service, trusted adult for PL, SPL & Nephew and not much else.

 

I won't knock her willingness to go, especially since I am unable to go myself. But how do you re-educate an adult to understanding failing is a part of growing? I don't want to see the boys stop going and I know she only wants to do what is best for them and for them all to have a good time. Do I say something to the SM? I'm still inclined to stay out of it and to let the youth deal with it themselves. If they start declining to go on trips that she goes on maybe the message would be made, but if it was school instead of scouts an adult would step in - if only to lend their complaints some credence.

 

We can't be the only Troop with this sort of thing going on. How did you handle it? BTW - if the advice is to keep my nose out I'm good with that, just be courteous when you say so.

 

YiS

Michelle

[ScoutNut]

"She cooks for them, cleans up after them, starts their fires, etc because she doesn't want the younger boys (6th graders) to fail."

 

Too late, once she starts doing their jobs for them they have already failed. What are the rest of the adults on the camping trips doing while the CC is doing all of the boys work for them? Is she doing all of the work for the other adults as well? You would think one of them could quietly approach her & tell her to stop & let the boys alone.

 

Also, why is the SPL complaining to you instead of talking to his grandmother? I would think it would be easier for him to talk to her than to his SM. Or, if he is uncomfortable talking to his grandmother, perhaps he could talk to his parents & have them talk to her.

 

If the SPL is unwilling to talk to his own family, & the other adults are content to let her do everything, then 1 or both of the other boys should request a SM conference & talk to him about the problem - ASAP.

 

 

[Philmont0406]

Maybe incorrectly, but I'll assume that when the SM can't go on the trip at least one of the adults on the trip has had New Leader Essentials, Scoutmaster Specific and ITOLS.

It sounds from your description the the SPL is afraid of his grandmother and that is why he won't talk to her.

If you are on the committee you could bring it up at the committee meeting that some of the boys have come to you about the situation.

How are the newer boys able to advance if the CC is doing the work on these trips? Is she signing off in their handbook that they did the work? If so, obviously she is doing them a great disservice.

I first looked at this thread due to the subject, every year right after cross over we have scouts drop out of the troop as soon as they realize they have to do the work and not the adults. The hard part is to convince the new parents this is how the program is supposed to work.

However, when it is the CC that is making it into Webelos III, then the SM needs to brought on board and a discussion has to take place at the committee meeting.

 

Good Luck.

[msnowman]

Scoutnut says "Also, why is the SPL complaining to you instead of talking to his grandmother? I would think it would be easier for him to talk to her than to his SM. Or, if he is uncomfortable talking to his grandmother, perhaps he could talk to his parents & have them talk to her. "

 

His gmother is custodial, his father is deceased and his mother is in and out of jail. He and his gmother have....lets say....the communications issues common with the age. Thus why he finds it easier to talk to almost anybody else but her.

 

As far as what the other adults do or say - usually a trip she is on the SM is not on. Its her and either an ASM or a MC parent. She tends to get up before anybody else and start doing for them before anybody can stop her.

 

The CC has the training you asked about, as she considered taking the SM role before the current one stepped up. As far as the boys advancing - that hasn't happened on the trips she has gone one. The 2 Tfoots still need cooking and picking patrol camp site sort of things. (For the record those are being worked on this weekend at Chillout w/ SM).

 

Thanks for asking and helping me look further.

 

YiS

Michelle

(This message has been edited by msnowman)

[prairie]

I had two strong willed grandmothers, standing up to them even as an adult brought on months of coldness. Maybe somebody could slip her some of Green Bar Bill's writings, take the aproach that letting the boys do it is good for them. Good luck.

[Stosh]

We've fought this battle for the entire 15 years I have been with the Troop as ASM. We call them "Mothers". We go over and take equipment out of their hands and hand it to the nearest scout. We bring chairs for them to sit in and then gently insist they sit in them, and recently we have been training our youth to use the phrase, "With all due respect Mr./Mrs. _________, I believe this is my job, may I have the opportunity to do it?" The real test of this is when the SPL says that to the SM.

 

EVERY adult that comes into our troop as a leader or chaperone for the weekend get's a heads-up on this. It isn't easy, especially after 15 years I still catch myself and have to back off.

 

We have adopted the policy that the best place for adult scouters to lead from is around the fire talking to each other.

 

Stosh

[Gonzo1]

Sounds like grandma is in serious need of training and perhaps a few campouts at home, i.e. not with the troop.

[emb021]

While its nice that a Troop CC goes with the troop on camping trips, they need to allow the youth leaders to do their job, and allow the ASM to cover for the SM. That's the ASM's job, not the CC.

 

This Troop CC needs training as to what their job is, what the youth's job is and what the ASM's job is. Her interference shows she don't under how the Boy Scout Program works.

 

 

[msnowman]

Thank you everybody for your insight, views and opinions. At least now I know the concerns are legitimate. I've tried talking to her casually about it but that fell on deaf ears. My only concern with voicing it at a Committee meeting is that she will feel "ganged up on" which is definately not the intent.

 

Thanks again

 

YiS

Michelle

[baschram645]

Talk to the SM about this. She is interferring with the boys' and his program. His arena is programs, hers is supporting his. Present both sides of the story (if you have seen this in action). She should be handled with care though because it sounds like she is trying to ensure that she doesn't fail her grandson like she did his mom (I am assuming she is the maternal Grandma) or at least make the same mistakes with him.

 

 

[kb6jra]

You've gotten some really great advice here and I'll admit that IMO every troop has issues similar to this.

 

The Scoutmaster should know what's going on. If the boys feel comfortable talking to you about it, it is your duty to bring it up to the Scoutmaster. Adults do weird things all the time. We make mistakes as often as the boys do, sometimes more often. It is just as important for us to learn the how's and why's as it is for the boys.

 

The CC has been to training? Doesn't sound like she's been paying attention. Perhaps she should attend SM specific trainaing and that would give her some more insight on how to leave the boys alone in getting things done.

 

The Scoutmaster will have to step in soon and basically say that she either stop her counter-productive behavior or stop attending outings. I've had to do it before, and I'll probably have to do it again before I'm done being a SM. Mentoring at the SM level happens with youth and adults, so the SM needs to step up and earn his pay. (HA, pay...that's funny) Maybe earn his patch would be a better term.

 

There of course are diplomatic ways of getting this done. Subtle hints aren't working? Perhaps letting her know how the kids feel about going on any more campouts with her. This is very distructive to the Troop and it needs to be dealt with soon. If she's into scouting like it sounds she is, knowing this may help change her behavior...

 

The more I think about this the more issues I bring up...In my unit, we had a similar issue.

 

We had one mom who refused to take our insistance that her son sleep with his patrol, not with her, he would carry his own stuff (up to his weight limit), that the patrol cook for themselves, etc., she would leave him alone. This would work on Saturday hike in, but come Sunday morning, son would be snuggled next to mom in mom's tent and it was just disgusting and ridiculous.

 

The previous SM and I would take her, her husband and their son out to coffee during the meeting and explain how damaging this was to the rest of the troop. The agreed and said they'd change. They never did. When I finally took over as SM and I finally put my foot down, they stopped attending outings, then meetings...someone had to be the bad guy.

 

I guess I would offer, if training doesn't help, then a SM proclomation may be needed.

 

Good luck, sounds like you may need it.

[Beavah]

Yah, msnowman. I think you're role in this is to encourage the kids to talk to the SM, eh? It's good that they trusted you. Now, teach 'em how a Scout is Brave. Even consider makin' an appointment to go with them, but let them do the talking. Then it's no longer your job .

 

Most of the others talked about the different ways for the SM to respond. I think havin' a "Roses and Thorns" type discussion after a trip might be good. Provided there's some gentle encouragement and coachin' of the boys on how to offer productive "feedback" to adults beforehand, eh? It helps if this kind of honest debriefin' is part of your troop culture.

 

I expect Grandma hearin' it from several kids, including her grandson, in a forum that's "safe" and private (in terms of not in front of many other adults), might be the best way to get the message across. Trainin' is too abstract, and not immediate enough. "Grandma, it really hurts when you do that, because it's like you don't trust me" or "Mrs. Jones, it really makes me feel like a kindergartener, and makes me not want to come on any more campouts." ain't abstract at all, eh? But yeh have to set up the safe haven, and the expectation of honest sharing of good and bad (no arguin!) to pull it off.

 

Committee's not the place for it. If yeh can't do Roses & Thorns, it should be SM and UC with the CC over a cup of coffee, in private.

 

[msnowman]

I knew this would be the place to get suggestions and also more probing questions asked.

 

To clarify a couple of things - The Grandmother is actually paternal stepgmom. She didn't fail either of his parents, but is trying to keep SPL gson from following their destructive road. SPL is Nephew's best friend and a frequent guest in our house, thus why I hear trip deconstruction so often.

 

Beav - I think your suggestion of Roses & Thorns is a good one. The boys do that (informally) when I pick them up on Sundays after a trip. I get to hear everything that went on - the good, the bad, the ugly and the funny....amazing how often the ugly and the funny are the same thing. Later when I see Gmom at Cub Scouts I hear the same things from her....now if they all just sat down together and talked about what went well, what went wrong and what they learned it might help.

 

Nephew has invited "his" Webelos I's out to visit the troop at Chillout this weekend and to have lunch with them. Perhaps I'll mention the debriefing idea to the SPL and to the SM. Gmom isn't on this trip, so if they hashed this one out good/bad, then when they do it after a trip she's on it wouldn't seem so personal.

 

I appreciate the guidance given to me so I can offer that same to the boys. They aren't going to be boys forever and its important (imho) for them to learn how to deal with difficult situations and people constructively.

 

YiS

Michelle