Rank Reduction

[LongHaul]

Beavah,

You have been on a toss away the rule book trend for a while now, something happen we dont know about? Why have rules and by-laws if we dont intend to follow them? If the adults cant be bothered to go thru the steps and do it by the numbers why should the boys?

LongHaul

 

[OldGreyEagle]

This thread has certainly cut across the breadth of scouting issues. I am not sure we have another thread that has so many hot issues wrapped up in one place. This is how I see the issues and I think in total, most of use are in violent agreement.

 

I think it best when adult leaders know what the response to belligerent behavior will be. When the rambunctious scout is about to dismantle your last nerve is not the time to begin to formulate an appropriate response. If the scout had a pattern of behavior that would warrant a "drop" in rank, then the scoutmaster should know he has the support of the troop committee to do what needs to be done for the good of the individual scout and the troop. Rather that telling a scout I would drop him a rank, I will say I will have your parents come and get you and take you home. Then we will discuss your behavior. If the scout has had a pattern of disruptive behavior the parents are already on notice such a call may be forthcomming.

 

next, when distruptive behavior is shown, the adult leaders of the troop, both scoutmasters and committee have to look at it. Does the behavior represent a danger to self and others? if the answer is yes, then there cant be a second thought. The boy needs to find help, and that may or may not be a volunter group of adults trying to run a Boy Scout troop. If the adults can't handle, or rather are not equipped to handle behavior that poses a threat to the youth or others then the boy is gone, no question. In the troop I serve I know we try our upmost to provide an environment where all boys can be a scout. But unfortunately we had to let a boy go because of violent mood swings. Even the parents could not predict when he would erupt and after two incidents, he was asked to leave, now he has Auspergers and no one felt good about his leaving the troop, but we would all have felt worse if he actually had buried that hatchet in the other boy chest.

 

I dont think that a single leader, scoutmaster, committee chair, etc. should ever feel they have the power to dismiss a scout from the program, but each one of them has to know if they feel a scout is a danger to himself and/or others and calls for a parental pickup, they know there will be a committee meeting to review what happened and what happens next. The scout has to know it was not one person who is responsible for his leaving the troop. if he thinks it was one, then he can reconcile the action by saying, that mean old mr greyeagle, he never liked me. When there is a group decision made, then maybe the scout pays attention. Then maybe not but its a shot.

 

The whole concept of by laws, rules, regulations, etc is a continual soruce of fodder. What some refer to as by laws may be as simple as when the troop meets, when dues are due, and that kind of thing. Then again, there are troops with by laws that spell out required participation in activities and other things I find non-sensical but then again, maybe in the situation they are in they may make sense.

 

I dont think anyone wants to abjectly summarily toss anyone from the program, but just like relieving an SPL of his postion before his term is up, once available recourses have been exhausted, there is little choice left

[Eamonn]

From the Guide to Safe Scouting.

 

Youth Member Behavior Guidelines:

The Boy Scouts of America is a values-based youth development organization that helps young people learn positive attributes of character, citizenship, and personal fitness. The BSA has the expectation that all participants in the Scouting program will relate to each other in accord with the principles embodied in the Scout Oath and Law.

One of the developmental tasks of childhood is to learn appropriate behavior. Children are not born with an innate sense of propriety and they need guidance and direction. The example set by positive adult role models is a powerful tool for shaping behavior and a tool that is stressed in Scouting.

Misbehavior by a single youth member in a Scouting unit may constitute a threat to the safety of the individual who misbehaves as well as to the safety of other unit members. Such misbehavior constitutes an unreasonable burden on a Scout unit and cannot be ignored.

Member Responsibilities: (Bold Print!)

All members of the Boy Scouts of America are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law. Physical violence, hazing, bullying, theft, verbal insults, and drugs and alcohol have no place in the Scouting program and may result in the revocation of a Scout's membership in the unit.

 

(Not bold print.)If confronted by threats of violence or other forms of bullying from other youth members, Scouts should seek help from their unit leaders or parents.

Unit Responsibilities (Bold Print)

Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it.

The BSA does not permit the use of corporal punishment by unit leaders when disciplining youth members.

 

The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit.

 

If problem behavior persists, units may revoke a Scout's membership in that unit. When a unit revokes a Scout's membership, it should promptly notify the council of the action.

 

The unit should inform the Scout executive about all incidents that result in a physical injury or involve allegations of sexual misconduct by a youth member with another youth member.

(Primary reference: Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America)

 

The way I read this:

"The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit."

Means that the unit committee is the group that determines the course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit."

Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. This is different than determining the course of corrective action.

This is the policy of the BSA and as it is the policy no unit by-laws or unit rules can go against it.

Scoutmasters do not discipline Scouts.

Scout Executives have to be informed when a unit committee revokes the membership of a Scout in the unit.

We as leaders are the people who set the example. A Scout is to be trusted.

Surely Scout Spirit would demand that we follow the policy of the BSA?

This is the Boy Scouts of America, not some dictatorship with Scoutmasters as the Dictators!

The role of the Scoutmaster is to deliver the program.

The Troop Committee can as a course of corrective action, ask the SM to hold a SM conference with the Scout and work things out that way.

Allowing the Scoutmaster to be Judge, Jury and Executioner is not how we do things.

All Scout Leaders need to be aware of this and understand it.

Of course mistakes do happen and when a mistake like the one Philmont0406 has brought up does happen some way has to be found to correct the mistake. I'm not saying the SM needs to be hung, drawn and quartered but steps need to be taken to ensure that it never happens again.

I have to admit to being a little saddened to hear that some long time Scouters feel that they have the right to be Judge, Jury and Executioners.

Ea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LongHaul]

Eamonn,

I don't doubt what you have said but would like to know where you got the line about the SE having to be informed if a scout has his membership revoked. Having been in the position of having to do it and aceptting the possibility that it could happen again I'd just like to be clear. Second does that hold when the CO or CC refuses to accept a boy or adult for membership?

LongHaul

[Beavah]

Scoutmasters do not discipline Scouts.

 

Yah, that's funny, eh?

 

This SM, accordin' to the CC and other parents, made the right call with respect to the boy's behavior. That he did it with the family in private rather than through a big public process like a Committee Expulsion Hearing is a judgment call. Rough guess, this SM needs some quiet support to come up with a bigger repertoire for dealin' with kid behaviors, a lot more than he needs a CC (who never had to deal with this kid personally) to give him a lecture about policy and bylaws inspired by some internet critters, even those of the cute flat-tailed variety.

 

Da question for Philmont0406 isn't about what the SM should have done, eh? The question is what he as CC should do now. What the SM did is water over the bridge. Maybe if the SM had posted a month ago, we could have given him some better suggestions.

 

My advice to the CC is still "Don't be a bully." Don't quote policy or bylaws like some tinpot wannabe lawyer to establish your Authority. Don't turn this into Committee v. Scoutmaster.

 

Rather, be understanding and compassionate of a SM tryin' to do his best under tough circumstances and gettin' only a "C" on his first try. Now go out, without makin' a fuss in front of other parents on the committee, to find some ways to support the SM's learning and development - pay for training, find a good "old hand" he can share a beer with to discuss issues he's dealing with, nudge the district to get you a real UC. If he's net-savvy, tell him about Scouter.Com and Scouter-T and Scouts-L and even Kudu's weird site.

 

You know, support the SM and help him to provide a better program. That thing that all those funny Boy Scout Books say is the Committee's primary role and reason for being.

 

Beavah

[SR751Fox]

>>Adults have learning curves too. This has been a SM for less than a year. Dealing with difficult scouts is not something that BSA training effectively addresses (my opinion - feel free to differ, if you left a weekend of training and were prepared to work with troubled boys and able to turn them around.)>This is only learned through experience, and the only way we get experience is by making mistakes.

[Eamonn]

LongHaul

"If problem behavior persists, units may revoke a Scout's membership in that unit. When a unit revokes a Scout's membership, it should promptly notify the council of the action. "

http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss01.html

 

Under: Unit Responsibilities

Ea.

[evmori]

Scoutmasters don't discipline Scouts

 

Where's it say that? I have never read that? Does that mean while on a campout little Billy burns down a tent the SM just tells little Billy not to do that anymore & waits till the unit gets back home so the TC can handle it? If this happened in my unit, the Scout's parents would be called & little Billy would be on his way home pronto.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[LongHaul]

Eamonn,

Thank You for the reference. While I have read the GTSS line by line I have never studied it to the point that I can quote it accurately. I actually don't remember ever seeing that line in there but it's in every old copy I still have. Never thought of consulting the GTSS when this came up in my troop. While I can understand the safe guard I wonder why National would want to involve the council.

LongHaul

[Venividi]

SR751Fox,

 

It is apparent that I touched a nerve that I did not mean to touch, and appologize for doing so.

 

I AM with you on training. Training is important for everyone that works with the youth. But that wasn't my point. Nor has there been any indication in this thread whether or not this SM has been through training. The point that I was trying to make was that training does not provide the end-all on how to deal with difficult boys. Nor can it. People get college degrees and doctorates in such things.

 

I have been a SM. I have seen and experienced parents jump over SM's because they didn't handle a situation the way the parents wanted. Have seen them threaten to pull their son out of scouts if the SM didn't handle difficult situations their way. And second guess their (and my) adequacy. SM's are human beings. They sometimes make mistakes, and sometimes make sub-optimum decisions when they are out on the front lines working with a large group of boys, especialy when they include ones that are, to use a euphamism, less than cooperative.

 

Training isn't going to help that situation. First, you can't cover every potential problem in a two day (or even week long)class. Second, the human mind cant remember it all. Third, tiredness and stress causes reactions that people wouldn't make under normal situations. What will help such situations is learning by experience, and then reflecting on it - as previously suggested in using thorns & roses.

 

I reread my post, and nowhere do I see any indication that I indicated that use of rank demotion was appropriate or allowed. Sure, the SM made a mistake, or had a lapse in judgement. I advise helping the SM learn from it. I don't think that telling him he needs training, or specifically telling him to ease up on the throttle is the right way to do that. Sure, that is one possible way, but I think that there are gentler ways that will be a whole lot more effective. Imagine someone coming up to you after witnessing something they didn't like, and, not knowing your background, assumed you hadn't been to training, so told you to go to class before spending any more time with the scouts.

 

I applaud your working with ADD/ADHD kids (am making that assumption based on your reference to having many scouts with Ritalin prescriptions). I do note that you reference that you have plenty of EXPERIENCE with unruly kids. And that was the point that I had intended to make - that dealing with unruly kids is learned by experience, not in a weekend class. Given your last paragraph, I don't think that we really disagree.

[Eagledad]

>>To even hint that my suggestion of getting trained PRIOR to leading a group of boys is a "high horse" issue is ridiculous and insulting. Shame on you.

[Lisabob]

Eagledad writes: "How about adults sitting down and just talking, there is another idea."

 

Ah and that's why I love this forum, it gives me a (virtual) place to do that and people with whom to talk. Strangely enough I find I spend more time talking about and thinking through scout-related issues with you here, than I do with most of the other adults in our troop. Maybe because not everybody in a typical unit is equally involved or interested, whereas an awful lot of us here are addicts. Maybe because we can bring our scouting discussions to this forum without the various obstacles that face-to-face interactions sometimes add to the process. Maybe because, if I really strongly disagree with someone here, I can choose to ignore them - a luxury that doesn't exist at the unit level! Anyway, just sitting down and talking is, as Barry says, so valuable, if not always so simple.

 

[Eamonn]

" why National would want to involve the council." ?

I don't think the Council in most cases does inform the National Office. But if for some reason a request for information did come from the National Office, a Council should have the information.

In my opinion and it's just my opinion!

The removal of a Scout from a Troop is a very big deal.I would hope that it would be the very last resort, when everything else has failed. The decision is not one that should be taken lightly.

The decision might have far reaching outcomes. Many Lads would take it in their stride and move on, but there are Lads who would take it very much to heart and be very upset. The same could be said of some families. While most of us in Scouting know about CO's and the workings of the BSA, a lot of parents see their son as being a member of the BSA and when things happen their first port of call will be the Council Service Center.

Dealing with a upset parent who is unloading one side of what has happened when you don't know the other side of the story is hard and very often things can be said that are just wrong. If however the Council has been informed and what happened is documented the Council can manage the situation better.

Informing the Council also makes them aware that this Lad might have a problem which other units might need to be aware of. While the Troop Committee can remove the Scout from the unit, he could move to the Troop down the road.

Ed

The situation you describe with the tent and the action you would take is right on the money.

"Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it."

The $64,000 is what happens next and who handles it.

Of course because you are aware of the policy of the BSA

"The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit"

You would be happy to allow the unit committee to determine the action that should be taken.

I feel sure the Committee would contact you and ask you questions to help them determine that course.

Ea.

 

 

[Beavah]

"The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit"

You would be happy to allow the unit committee to determine the action that should be taken.

I feel sure the Committee would contact you and ask you questions to help them determine that course.

 

Yah, I just really dislike these one-size-fits-all solutions, eh?

 

I remember a couple of lads caught smokin' weed (and passin' it out to others) at a district event. The way that played out, the SM met with the parents and the boys withdrew from Scouting. I don't think there's an obligation to take that to the Committee, so that all the other parents in the unit can get in an uproar. Sometimes kindness demands a lighter touch. I recall a bully in a troop, where I and the SM met with the parents and the boy left. There were so many truly furious parents on the committee that a committee meeting would have resulted in fisticuffs. Sometimes prudence demands a different course.

 

Not every committee has the skills or experience to really determine what actions are best to help the boy. They certainly don't have the depth of knowledge about the boy that the unit leaders do. And even if they did, to be successful they still have to work through the SM.

 

The boy in this case was apparently repeatedly hitting other boys, starting fights as a "first choice." He's First Class, so he's not goin' to be the smallest kid. On at least one outing, all of the other parents complained.

 

Yah, we have an obligation to protect the environment for all the rest of the kids, eh? (bunch of policy on that too, eh? ). If the Committee was going to be involved in this, it should have been in there after that first set of incidents. They weren't. They let it go on, and let the boy go on additional outings with no conditions or instructions to the SM. So the SM was on his own, tryin' to do his best.

 

There's plenty of "blame" to go around in any situation, if that's important to you. There's lots of ways to use "policy" to feel self-righteous and justified. I personally don't think either is in keepin' with our Oath and Law.

 

The situation is at where it's at, and there's no one-size-fits-all solution.

 

Yeh just have to respond as best you can, with kindness, understanding, and support.

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eagledad]

>>I don't think there's an obligation to take that to the Committee, so that all the other parents in the unit can get in an uproar. Sometimes kindness demands a lighter touch.