Rank Reduction

[Philmont0406]

Can a Scoutmaster reduce a boy in rank, say from First back to Second class?

If so what type of offense would it take?

[OldGreyEagle]

this is the shorthand answer, no, the scoutmaster can't retract advancement.But somehow I think there is a who lot missing from your first post, so, what happened that led you to your posting?

[Philmont0406]

Our Scoutmaster (I'm the CC) threatened to reduce a boy in rank if he didn't behave on a camping trip. The boy has since left the troop, but I'm more concerned with future issues. The boy was a discipline problem, but we have by-laws covering this.

[sst3rd]

OGE is correct. Once a rank is earned, it cannot be taken away.

 

There is no written BSA rule saying the Scoutmaster can or cannot manipulate advancement, so don't ask for one. There simply is no mechanism in the BSA program allowing this.

 

I'm sure you're going to get many suggestions, because there are many appropriate ways to address behavior problems.

 

That Scoutmaster needs to be trained, because he obviously doesn't know acceptable methods. As far as Troop by-laws, some Troops have them, and they have been discussed extensively in these forums. If you have them, why didn't the Scoutmaster use them? But since the Scout has left................ but then for those "future issues," sounds like you've got problems.

 

 

sst3rd

[emb021]

"There is no written BSA rule saying the Scoutmaster can or cannot manipulate advancement, so don't ask for one. There simply is no mechanism in the BSA program allowing this."

 

The only rule about advancement is that you may not add to or take away from the written advancement requirements. I am not aware of any policy one way or another about revoking advancement. If it existed, it would be in the Advancement Guidelines booklet you can get from National Supply (and your Council Office/Scout Shop)

 

While there may be a procedure to remove an Eagle Scout award, I am not aware of it, and AFAIK, its something that would occur at the National level.

 

"The boy was a discipline problem, but we have by-laws covering this."

 

A slight repeat from a recent posting I sent to Scouts-L. Bylaws (one word, no hyphen) document how an organization is organized. They do NOT and should NOT deal with behavior/discipline of members. If an organization does feel the need to so document such things, they need to go into separate documents, say Membership Policy, Standing Rules, etc.

 

While OA Lodges, Venturing Crews, and Sea Scout Ships should have bylaws (and basic templates are provided), by and large there is no need for Pack and Troops to have them, because their organization is documented in the various BSA literature. Its one thing for a unit to document various policy, rules, procudures and the like. But these are not bylaws. Frankly, if National felt there was a need, again, this would have been covered in the documents, a template provided, and it be a requirement to charter a unit. [this is a standard requirement for subsidiary groups, like local clubs, of state or national organizations] (btw, I'm a parliamentarian, and am familiar with bylaws, have both written then and done revisions on them)

 

I have to echo sst3rd's comment about training. I think not just your Scoutmaster needs it.

 

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

First of all, the SM does not advance a scout. The Troop Committee (BOR) does. What the SM does not give, the SM cannot take away. I have never heard of a scout being "demoted", and the district advancement committee would probably approve an appeal.

[RangerT]

If you use threats to get a boy to behave then you have already lost the battle. This boy may have some personal issues going on causing him to behave this way. Get to know your boys so they will feel trust to bring their issues to you, sometime behavior problems are a cry for help. Now you will never know since the boy has left the troop. Once the rank is earned it belongs to the youth not the scoutmaster.(This message has been edited by RangerT)

[Beavah]

Yah, the rank issue here isn't really the point, is it?

 

Sounds like your question is really "I think the SM may have reacted poorly in responding to poor scout behavior. What is my role as CC in this?"

 

I think your role is to keep your ear to the ground, while being quietly supportive of the SM. Dealing with a boy whose behavior is troublesome all weekend can put a good man on his last nerve. While threatening a punishment like rank reduction isn't the best way to respond, it's a common enough thing from a tired adult.

 

The SM needs your support and understanding. Kids shouldn't misbehave all weekend. Misbehaving kids detract from the program for all the other boys, and often compromise safety. The Committee should generally back up the SM if he decides on a consequence, even if it's a bit odd. You only get to manage that end of the operation if you resign as CC and agree to be SM .

 

But then, you also need to have a couple of things playin' in the back of your head.

 

The first is "How can I help the SM do a better job?" Building relationships with young rascals is a bit of an art. So is constructive discipline. Training may help. The gentle hands-on coaching of a wise old adult or UC may be better. Just some ideas about "other options" might be the ticket. You know the personalities. Support the SM's weaknesses with other resources while exploiting his strengths.

 

The second thing playin' deep in the back of your head should be "Is this the right guy for the SM job?" I've seen a lot of leaders who try the punishment thing in frustration. Sometimes they grow out of it with help. Other times they just don't have the personality for working with a bunch of middle school boys. Simple behavioral issues ordinarily shouldn't cause a kid to leave, though it does happen. If you're gettin a lot of other dissatisfaction from youth and parents, and what you see going on really doesn't match the "tone" your CO expects, you might begin to dust off the succession plan. But's that quite a ways down the fairway, eh?

 

Whatever yeh do, don't make this a bylaws-and-policy adult power struggle. We're all friends and volunteers, doin' what we can for kids. A chat over a cup of coffee is better than a policy almost all da time.

 

Beavah

[Beavah]

Oops.

 

I'd add one more thing to cogitate on while snow falls outside your window.

 

It's interestin' to me that the punishment your SM chose was related to rank.

 

Sometime in the next year, take a thoughtful look at whether your troop's program and culture is too advancement-focused. Seems like a better punishment would have been missin' out on the evening campfire game or an apology and puttin' in some extra service time,or temporary suspension as Troop Bugler or somethin' that's left to his Patrol Leader. If rank is the first thought, and it's such a big deal that it causes a boy to quit, maybe yeh need to put some more emphasis on the other seven methods.

 

That'd be a good thing for a CC to try to support, too.

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Stosh]

FYI

 

"HANDBOOK FOR BOYS", copyright 1911, reprinted 1976

 

page 15,

 

"The following laws which relate to the Boy Scouts of America, are the latest and most up to date. These laws a boy promises to obey when he takes his scout oath.

 

1. A scout is trustworthy.

 

A scout's honor is to be trusted. If he were to violate his honor by telling a lie, or by cheating, or by not doing exactly a given task, when trusted on his honor, he may be directed to hand over his scout badge."

 

It may no longer be part of the scouting program today, but it once was back when the Scout Law was a serious charge of honor, not just memorized words.

 

Stosh

[Philmont0406]

The damage has already been done in this case. The boy is no longer in the troop because the SM threw him out. He didn't follow the troop procedure, he just threw him out. I'm more concerned with him continuing this practice of threatening boys with demotion.

I plan on having a conversation with him and hopefully this won't be an issue in the future.

 

Thanks.

[Eamonn]

Me thinks the time to take this SM behind the wood shed is now!!

Ea.

[Stosh]

Since when is it the fault of the SM? When does the boy mature and take responsibility for himself? I've always believed that that is part of what scouting used to be.

 

We've kicked kids out for theft, threatening other scouts with weapons, and lying. They know the rules from the beginning and pledge an oath on their honor to uphold it.

 

We take seriously those words and those promises. Not everyone does and the decision to expell a youth isn't taken lightly. But it does happen.

 

I have demoted youth in our venturing crew and the boy stepped up to the plate and earned back the respect of his peers.

 

Stosh

[Eamonn]

Of course I don't know this Scoutmaster.

He could be a really nice fellow.

But someone needs to explain to him how things should be done and what the rules are.

A Scoutmaster can not throw a Scout out.

No ifs ands or buts.

This is not the way things are done.

As for Rank Reduction.

Rank advancement in the BSA is a matter of meeting or passing laid down requirements, once met or passed they can't become unmet.

Many of the sweet charming little blue eyed 12 year olds by the time they reach 15 are green eyed monsters.

Still our role as Scouters is to serve these Lads and work with them.

If a Scout has to be removed from the unit this should be done by the Committee, with the approval of the CO and the Scout Executive should be notified.

I'm 100% in agreement with RangerT.

I think the 1911 quote is based on Scouting for Boys, 1908 fortnight series:

" A SCOUT'S HONOUR IS TO BE TRUSTED. If a scout says "On my honour it is so," that means that it is so, just as if he had taken a most solemn oath. Similarly, if a scout officer says to a scout, "I trust you on your honour to do this," the scout is bound to carry out the order to the very best of his ability, and to let nothing interfere with his doing so. If a scout were to break his honour by telling a lie, or by not carrying out an order exactly when trusted on his honour to do so, he would cease to be a scout, and must hand over his scout badge, and never be allowed to wear it again--he loses his life.

I see "the scout is bound to carry out the order to the very best of his ability" As being a big difference.

By about 1911 the British Boy Scouts Association had changed it slightly:

If a Scout says, "on my honour it is so," that means that it is so, just as if he had taken a most solemn oath.

Similarly, if a Scout Officer says to a Scout, "I trust you on your honour to do this," the Scout is bound to carry out the order to the very best of his ability, and to let nothing interfere with his doing so.

If a Scout were to break his honour by telling a lie, or by not carrying out an order exactly when trusted on his honour to do so, he may be directed to hand over his Scout Badge, and never wear it again. He may also be directed to cease to be a Scout.

This is addressing the removal of a Scout not a Rank reduction.

Ea

 

[evmori]

Lots of good points here.

 

There is nothing that I am aware of that states a unit leader can't demote a Scout in rank. And there is nothing that says it can be done either. There are a lot of things like this in the BSA. I have always been one who believes once a rank is earned (unless it was fraudulently earned) it can't be revoked.

 

jblake47 brings up some excellent questions, too. If a Scout is a behavior problem, it is the Scout who must start to toe the line or suffer the consequences of his actions. After all, we are preparing young men to make moral & ethical decisions, aren't we?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10