Lawyers and Insurance and Bears, Oh My!

[Oak Tree]

I'm with Beavah and Eamonn. Use of good judgement is a great thing. I don't like it when people use the G2SS as a club. I'd find it ludicrous it if a trip were cancelled in the middle because the BALOO-trained person had to leave. We do sometimes drive at night. Sometimes one car will follow another.

 

It seems like this rules discussion happens over and over. We've got the canonical list of why people don't follow the rules. I don't know that we need to have it again (but still, here I am).

 

This thread didn't start off as a rule-breaking thread. It instead is intended to discuss the legal consequences of our actions as volunteers. I very much like Beavah's description - it's something I've asked for in training but have never received. I can see why the BSA doesn't really want to push this information, but I'd love to hear if anyone knows of any reason why Beavah is incorrect (from a legal, not philosophical /moral/ethical perspective). It sounds pretty much like what I'd expect - I know I expect my insurance companies to cover me even if I make a mistake.

 

I'm always interested to hear about any actual lawsuits and their outcomes.

 

So anyway - thanks for the information, Beavah.

 

Oak Tree

[Eamonn]

I don't see this thread being about rules.

I see it being about telling the truth.

 

I cringe when I hear a parent tell a very young child "Be good or the policeman will arrest you".

Scoutmasters tell Scouts they have to travel in uniform in order to be insured.

This is not telling the truth.

The BSA working with people and organizations have come up with guidelines and rules that will keep the kids we serve safe.

But when we build a pioneering tower higher than the BSA safe height, I'm guilty of breaking the rule and maybe not keeping or working within the Scout Oath and Law.

I am still covered by the BSA insurance.

If a Scout was hurt I would be covered.

Depending on a few things the local Scout Exec. might deem that because I am unwilling to play by the rules I'm too much of a liability and revoke my BSA membership.

In over 20 years with our Council I have never seen this happen.

I'm not saying we should ignore the rules.

I'm saying we need to tell the truth.

Trainers and old timers like me need to at times say that we just don't know the answer to each and every question. Not come up with make believe answers.

There is no boogie man and he isn't going to get you!

Ea.

[Beavah]

Yah, please! No rules thread! Or appeals to Authority!

 

This is perhaps more simply stated as "There is nothing in the BSA training materials about liability and insurance. So if a trainer starts goin' on about liability and insurance, they are not following the training syllabus. They are improvising on their own. Probably badly." In fact, the only thing you'll ever see from the BSA is a statement that you're covered, period.

 

So if we all know that, we can refrain from passin' on poor information, and might even gently correct misconceptions when we hear 'em online or at Roundtables.

 

 

 

 

[Hunt]

"In such a suit, the standards of judgment for your driving would be those of the broader world (assured clear distance, etc.), not da stuff in G2SS like no caravaning or driving at night."

 

Well, now, here's where I don't agree. We're talking about a personal injury suit, where the standard is going to be whether the driver was negligent or not--whether he took the care that a reasonable person would have under the circumstances. The plaintiff's lawyer will point out that the driver was operating under the auspices of an organization with safety rules, and that he was violating them. I agree that this won't keep BSA from defending the driver, but the jury will probably be allowed to consider this, with all the other facts, in deciding whether the driver was negligent or not. The driver will be allowed to provide contrary evidence, i.e., that caravaning was actually safer, that it's not against the law, etc. But I will also point out that in 999 out of 1000 cases, all the cars in the caravan will have been exceeding the speed limit at the time of the accident, and it gets more complicated.

[Jeffrey H]

The lesson here is to drive safely at all times and have PERSONAL auto and health insurance. Be safe and use common sense. The Tour Permits remind us of this with a declaration. Get to know G2SS as a tool to mitigate our own ignorance about safety issues.

 

The BSA will back a unit with their insurance in times of crisis, but they will cancel a charter if the unit has an unacceptable safety record in the Scouting program.

[ScoutNut]

From BSA COR Training -

 

"Provide primary general liability insurance to cover the chartered organization and its board, officers, chartered organization representative, and employees against all personal liability judgments. This insurance includes attorney's fees and court costs as well as any judgment brought against the individual or organization. Unit leaders are covered in excess of any personal coverage they might have, or if there is no personal coverage, the BSA insurance immediately picks them up on a primary basis."

 

 

From the Guide to Safe Scouting -

 

"The BSA general liability program is not just insurance. In fact, insurance plays a very small part. Our greatest efforts are spent on safety and injury prevention. BSA self-funds the first million dollars of each liability claim. This means that almost all money spent on a liability claim is Scouting money, not insurance money. Accident and sickness insurance pays regardless of fault as long as the accident occurred during an official Scouting activity and the unit or council has purchased the coverage."

 

Also from the Guide to Safe Scouting - Camping section -

 

"Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America."

 

 

So, while BSA does cover for just about anything, the last quote seems to imply that there are cases when BSA liability insurance would NOT cover you.

 

 

[Beavah]

but they will cancel a charter if the unit has an unacceptable safety record in the Scouting program

 

I agree with everything else Jeff H says about insurance and such. But I wouldn't substitute this one as the new version of "fear."

 

Canceling a charter is an extremely rare event. Goes all the way to National, has relationship implications. Dropping a leader is also very rare; never known it to be done for a safety/judgment issue. The BSA stands by its CO's and volunteers. It really does. Their excellent reputation in that regard should not be besmirched. Long-term histories of a higher accident profile, as we've seen in some areas, are only the subject of "mutual conversations" to improve things. Membership action is a very last resort.

 

 

ScoutNut, thanks for da G2SS quote, eh? I'm pretty sure that's a reference to a request for a certificate of insurance to be given to a third party (like a campground), not necessarily a statement that insurance coverage for the volunteer or CO is void. Cub leaders might not have much experience with that, but it's pretty common in Boy Scouting and Venturing for an outfitter or campground to demand a certificate of insurance, or even to ask to be listed as additional insured. Councils do this regularly for units on request.

 

Yah, and da COR trainin' quote is out of date. Wish they'd fix that. BSA insurance is now primary for registered adults, not excess (except for vehicle accidents). Another good example of the BSA lookin' out for the volunteer.

 

So again, follow da rules intelligently, do good things for kids, and fear no monsters.

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[AntelopeDud]

OK Mythbusters, help me with this one.

 

Our Troop has parents that on a somewhat regular basis (about every other month) accompany the Troop on monthly campouts. Several of them have never registered as Adult Leaders even though we have asked them to consider it. As a Committee Chairman, I often wonder if we should require them to register for that extra layer of legal protection in case something happens to them while they are on a campout with us. Is there any validity to requireing adults to register if they will be on 2 or more campout per year with our Troop, or even if they plan on camping out at all. Several summer camp properties require that leaders in attendance be registered Scouters. My council has never given me a straight answer on the liability exposure of an adult that is not registered.

 

Any thoughts?

 

-AD

[OldGreyEagle]

Hey Antelope Dude, from the Guide to Safe Scouting we find the statement:

 

No secret organizations.

The Boy Scouts of America does not recognize any secret organizations as part of its program. All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders.

 

If all aspects of the program are open to parents and leaders, then all parents and leaders have to be allowed to observe all activities which means "mere" parents are going to be covered by BSA insurance if they are injured on a scouting event. They have a right to observe the program and don't have to be registered leaders to "observe".

[Beavah]

OGE's is a good answer for yeh, Antelope. Parents should always be welcome as observers, at least if they meet the experience/fitness/behavior requirements for the trip.

 

I think yeh have to ask yourself, "Is this parent really acting as an Assistant Scoutmaster?". That is, on the trip, does the parent have real duties counseling/supervising youth other than their own boy? Do they have some responsibility/duty of care to the other boys? A parent observer really doesn't. A parent who is entrusted with a supervision task does.

 

If yer entrusting a parent with a supervision task or an ASM-type role, then I'd suggest you have them register, at least as an MC. This hopefully ensures that your CO will do reference checks and the BSA will do a criminal history check, so you've done your due diligence. This makes the roles clear for everyone. And hopefully in your unit, it gets 'em lined up for training.

 

Registering also means the BSA's insurance becomes primary, rather than excess coverage. If they're not registered, and badness happens because of their failure, their personal insurance must defend them/pay first. Only when it's exhausted does the BSA insurance kick in. If they're registered, the BSA takes care of 'em right from the start. That keeps the person's personal liability/homeowners insurance off the board, which may save 'em a few bucks and some peace of mind.

 

In the grand scheme of things, da insurance issue for being registered is a smaller thing. I think the screening and training of those you're holding up to youth as a "trusted adult" is the more important issue. A small bit of fear of that kind of monster is a healthy thing.

 

Beavah