AOL to Tenderfoot

[oldman]

For boys crossing over with AOL, can the four weeks of activities required for the physical fitness award be counted for the requiremet for Tenderfoot? In an earlier Webelos book I was reading, boys were told to take their book to their new SM to show what Tenderfoot requirements they had already fulfilled. This passage has not been in recent Webelos books and is not in the HB. Has policy changed? Does everyone understand this without it being written? Or am I not getting something?

[jr56]

As a scoutmaster in the past I have accepted it, but it would be a unit by unit decision I'm sure.

[Lisabob]

In our unit I'm pretty sure the answer would be no. You aren't a boy scout until you've turned in the application and met the joining requirements (at which point you are no longer a cub scout and shouldn't be working on cub advancement any more either, right?), so how could you earn credit toward boy scout advancement prior to that point?

[Stosh]

I did my woodbadge ticket on this transition.

 

In 1993 the policy was that at the SM discretion, if the AOL requirements were sincerely done right, then they could be accepted as advancement for Tenderfoot.

 

I carried two Webelos groups through the transition and both groups were under age 11, just finishing up 8th grade in Feb. (AOL at Blue/Gold Banquet in the middle of 2nd year Webelos). Crossed over into Scouts with basis in AOL fulfillment AND were received into the Troop as Tenderfoot. It was all legitimate with the scouting policy at that time, allowed for cooperation with SM, and 3 boys from those two classes went on to Eagle.

 

The Webelos boys went through their requirements for Webelos twice and I also used the Tfoot requirements to supplement it just to be sure. To have the SM insist on Tfoot requirements on top of that would have the boys fulfilling the requirement 3 times. The boys were warned that they may have to do just that, but were very excited about coming into the Troop as Tfoot when the SM waved it. Set those boys and the SM on an excellent footing right from the start. 1/3 of the boys (those three mentioned earlier) were Eagles.

[evmori]

I'm with Lisabob on this. You aren't a Boy Scout until you crossover & complete the necessary joining requirements. And what's the rush?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[jr56]

I must admit that I have mixed feelings on this. I see your points Ed and Lisabob, but I somehow feel the program could have been laid out a little better to avoid all the duplication of requirements (such as the physical fitness portion). If I had to make a decision on that today, I guess I would have to take it on a case by case basis, and check with the boy and or his Weblos Den leader to get a detailed account of what was done to fulfill the requirement, and more importantly, what the boy feels he has learned.

[John-in-KC]

Count me in Lisa and Ed's camp. Scouting is a journey, not a race. Further, I'm part of the school that says "service hours count only once." The idea is to inculcate the habit, not to get a requirement done.

[OldGreyEagle]

They crossed the bridge, they left Cub Scouts behind and entered Boy Scouts. DO we now say when they crossed the bridge they left Cub Scouts behind, but not these activities that will count for Tenderfoot? Do the activities they attended while a Webelos with the troop count as a troop activity for advancement? Cubs is Cubs, Boy Scouts are Boy Scouts and that should be that. If this means the physical requirements for Boy Scouts need to be changed, then they need to be changed

[Stosh]

I guess it all just boils down to personal opinion and how it relates to the directives of the program. However, I may feel about whether or not a scout is rushed through his requirements or not, the policy of the BSA organization should still be the standard by which opinions are tempered. If a SM doesn't want the boy to be Tfoot after crossing over, fine. The policy allows for that. If a SM does want the boy to be Tfoot after crossing over, fine. The policy allows for that as well. However you wish to view the situation, be sure to inform the listener/inquirerer whether it's your personal opinion or national scout policy.

[ScoutNut]

If you read BSA liturature you will see that one of its RULES (NOT just an opinion or policy) is that you can only work in ONE program at a time.

 

That means that the things done for the Cub Scout program do NOT count towards Boy Scout advancement. It is not up to the SM's opinion. It can NOT be done.

 

You are telling me that if a 4th grade Webelos did his Webelos Physical Fitness Activity Pin is should be counted as a Boy Scout advancement requirement?? Where do you draw the line then. Why not count Cub Pack camping done as a Wolf & Bear towards Boy Scout nights camping? Why not count every meal cooked as a Cub Scout?

 

The programs are different for a reason. Things done as a Cub Scout are NOT age appropriate for a Boy Scout.

 

[Lisabob]

jblake, I am unclear as to how the policy (as currently written) allows for a webelos scout to cross over as a tenderfoot. It seems to me that upon crossing over one could become a "scout" within the hour but then there's that 30 day "clock" built into the tenderfoot requirement. As we do not allow the scout to "count" his cub achievements anywhere else toward boy scouting (ie, readyman doesn't count toward T-2-1 or 1st Aid MB; aquanaut doesn't count toward 2nd class/1st class aquatics requirements or swimming MB; outdoorsman doesn't count toward T-2-1 or camping MB, etc..) then why would we do so here? If in the past the requirements were worded differently then I could understand that - but as currently written I don't see how or why a person would interpret it in the manner you suggest. I don't think this is a matter of personal opinion to be honest - it would be a rather large leap to view the requirements (again, as currently written) as sanctioning this practice.

 

Now, should the AoL and webelos activity pin requirements and scout/tenderfoot requirements be revised to reduce the redundancy? Perhaps - but until that happens I think we need to honor them as written, which means boys do them twice: once in webelos, again as boy scouts.

 

[Hunt]

Note that some of the Tenderfoot requirements require activities be done with the Scout's patrol. These clearly can't be satisfied as a Webelos Scout.

 

Was there previously an actual BSA rule or policy that supported the practice of having AOL boys cross over as Tenderfoot?

[sst3rd]

This is going to be a bit "scattered", but I thought I would look into this process.

 

 

I was a Webolos in the late 60's. I received my AOL, and was brought into our Troop as a Tenderfoot in 1968 (give or take, it's been a year or two). That's all I can tell you. It worked for me and my brother.

 

I don't have my specific handbooks available, but I have a collection of older Scout handbooks, but I don't have any Cub Scout books to reference from, sorry.

 

In the 1959 copyright handbook, page 28 simply mentions the age of 11, and nothing else, to become a Boy Scout. Page 29 mentions how to find a Troop, and then page 30 mentions "Meeting the Tenderfoot Tests." It also states that, "if you are a Cub Scout, you will learn the tests while you work for your Webolos badge in your Webolos den."

"When your patrol leader is confident that you know your stuff (I see no mention of testing or retesting),he'll get you a Scout application form."

 

It then mentions having you sign it, the parents sign it, and then take the application to the Scoutmaster with your fee. It says that "Your Scoutmaster will go over the Tenderfoot tests with you to make sure that you know them and understand them (again, I see no mention of testing or retesting). When he is satisfied, he will send your application and your membership fee to the National Council of the Boy Scouts of America......". So, could this be how Webolos come into the Troop as a Tenderfoot? It just so happens it was the first rank that you worked on.

 

The 1965 copyrighted handbook says the same things.

-----------------------------------------------------------

One last bit, again scattered, the 1979 copyrighted book on page 531 in listing the Tenderfoot Rank requirements, has as requirement number 1) Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 2 months.* And then there is a footnote that says, "The Scoutmaster may waive the 2 - month service requirement for the Tenderfoot rank for a new Scout who has earned the Arrow of Light Award as a Webolos Scout."

 

 

Hey, just some thoughts...............

 

sst3rd

[OldGreyEagle]

Actually, it is permitted for a Boy Scout who is also a registered Venturer to double dip in a few areas, such as while working on the Backpacking merit badge and Backpacking elective for Ranger/OutDoor Bronze the youth could use a single backpacking trip and apply it towards both. Similarly, a Boy Scout Venturer could work on the First Aid merit badge and core course in First Aid at the same time so perhaps I may have to rethink my position

[Beavah]

Yah, as I sit with my swampers dryin' and my cold toes warmin' by da fire, I think I'm with Lisa'bob and the others, eh? I think that's what's meant by the Requirements Book when it says:

Merit badges, badges of rank, and Eagle Palms are for boys who are registered Boy Scouts or Varsity Scouts.

With the exception of Venturers working on Star, Life, and Eagle (given explicitly later in the same paragraph), it seems the intent is to allow working on Boy Scout advancement only if you're registered as a Boy Scout. I'm pretty sure there's an "official" statement somewhere to the same effect - that Cub activities should not count toward Scout advancement - but I can't lay my mittens on it.

 

Yah, I think for most units, that makes the most sense. The standards for Cub advancement ("do your best") and Boy Scout advancement ("meet the standard") are different, eh? Especially for fitness and such things that we want kids to develop as a habit, it seems perfectly reasonable to repeat. They repeat again in Personal Fitness MB, too!

 

As always, allowances for a CO that wants to do a creative, highly integrated program or somethin', and for fellow leaders tryin' to do their best for their units and kids.

 

As for me, I say "come on Joe, let's try some more situps... they're kinda fun when you get good, eh? "