Flag retirement on hold

[CA_Scouter]

We recently solicited donations of US flags for retirement. As we practiced/prepared for the ceremony, we opened one of the boxes and came across an unusual flag.

 

The flag was large ( 9x18 ), made of linen, was significantly faded, and ( get this ) it had only 38 stars on it! Upon examination by one of the adults, she could tell that it was sewn with a foot pedal type sewing machine, the stars were hand-stitched on, both front and back, and various hand-stitched repairs had been made on it in the past.

 

She did some research and found that the flag had 38 stars when Colorado was admitted to the Union back in the late 1800's ( I think she said 1880 or so ).

 

We are of the opinion that the flag is not a replica.

 

We are trying to decide what to do with the flag. We don't have an area where we can display it and we don't want to burn it. We have some ideas, but I'd like to know what would you do with it?

 

 

 

[Trevorum]

There are several versions of the 38 star flag - How are the stars arranged?

[stlscouter]

Interesting find,depending on its total condition I think I would check with a local historical society or museum to see if they have an interest for their collection or one of their displays or check with the local history teacher- maybe a student doing a report on that era could incorporate it into their report/project.

[OldGreyEagle]

Lets see, on one end of the bell curve you could have a clever reproduction (so much nicer than saying fake, dont you know) and at the other a genuine piece of history. Is there a college close by with a History Dept? I would think they would love to look at it and research it and either authenicate it or debunk it

[SemperParatus]

The donor donated the flag on the basis that it would be retired (ceremonously burned, I presume). That is what should be done.

 

Otherwise, its sort of like (in reverse) donating land to a BSA counsel on the basis that it be used as a camp, and then having the counsel do something else with it (like sell it!)

 

The donor wishes should be respected (in both cases). If you know who donated it, then maybe you should call them to make doubly sure of their wishes.

[scoutldr]

I would have the flag authenticated. If it is indeed an antique piece of history, it could be worth a lot of money, and the owner should be consulted. I would NOT burn it without researching it further.

[TheScout]

I suspect that if the flag is indeed authentic the owner who donated it did not realize what they had.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

38-star flags were from 1877-1890. Before 1912, star layout was not part of the official flag description, so the star layout won't tell you if it's authentic or not. It's probably 8-7-8-7-8. Like others have said, see if a local historical society or museum can authenticate it.

[CA_Scouter]

Yes, M, stars are arranged 8-7-8-7-8.

 

We don't know who donated it. We are checking the address on the box we believe it came in to see if any of those persons might know the origin of the flag. We really don't think they knew what they were giving away.

 

Finally, here is a short write up our committee chair put together about the flag.

 

========================================================

 

Each year Troop 460 conducts a flag retirement ceremony to respectfully retire worn and tattered US Flags. Flags are donated from various community organizations, government offices, and individuals. This year we found a very unusual flag in a collection that was donated from a local fire station. We do not know the actual source of this flag. Because it is so unique we will not retire this flag, and will try to find out more about it.

 

This is an antique American flag with 38 stars. This flag became the official United States Flag on July 4th, 1877. The 38th star was added for the admission of Colorado (August 1, 1876).

 

Design

 

The blue canton has 4 panels. It has 2 sets of white stars, one on each side, treadle sewn in a double applique fashion. There are 5 rows of stars. The top, middle and bottom rows have 8 stars, with a row of 7 stars in between each row of 8, for a total of 38 stars. The stars are 5 pointed, and point up in the rows of 8, and down in the rows of 7.

 

The 13 red and white stripes are horizontal, with the canton resting on a white stripe.

 

Construction and Materials

 

The stars and stripes are machine sewn. The fabric is a loose weaved linen. The flag has a canvas header, with a rope sewn in to it with loops at each end. The header is stamped 18 X 9 in the upper left part of the flag. There are 2 very faded signatures on the header. The flag now measures about 8 feet by 14 feet. The hems of the stripes are hand sewn with either red or white thread to match the color of the stripe. The worn ends of the stripes were probably trimmed and rehemmed several times.

 

Condition

 

The flag is quite worn, with some holes in it. There are several places, both in the stripes and the canton, where holes have been repaired by hand. The canvas header and rope are in good condition with no tears or holes.

 

 

[Trevorum]

Merlyn, you're right, the arrangement of the stars is not an indication of authenticity. However, some arrangements are more rare than others, and hence more collectible. The 8-7-8-7-8 is the most common.

 

CA, nonetheless, the flag is definitely collectible and, although worn, should not be destroyed. It should first be offered back to the original owner with some indication of it's historical (and possible monetary) value. If the owner(s) does not want the flag, I suggest that the troop sell it to a collector and use the funds for a campership or other worthy cause. The 8x14 ft dimensions are puzzling. A 10x12 ft 38 star flag in good condition is currently selling on eBay for $99.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Trev,

 

I agree it should be offered back, with (in order):

- Comments on its possible historic significance ... even if it flew over someone's house or sat in the corner of someone's office.

- Offers to assist in determining authenticity.

- Comments on its possible collectible value.

 

That said, I disagree with you on secretly retaining the flag if the owner gives clear instructions of "I do not care; destroy it," there may well be a reason he/she does not wish us to know. We really don't have an honorable choice but to destroy the flag at that point.

 

Now, if the owner says "Do what you think is right," that's another story.

 

It's one of those times where doing the right thing is not doing the convenient thing.

[Trevorum]

John, I may have been misunderstood; I didn't mean to imply that anyone should "secretly" disregard the owners wishes.

[Hunt]

I think a local community newspaper would be interested in this and would write an article. The troop should state what its intention is if the owner does not come forward--I guess I would suggest donating it to a local museum rather than selling it. I think there is a strong likelihood that the donor did not realize that the flag was historic (if it is in fact old) and that you shouldn't assume that the donor particularly wanted it to be destroyed.

[frank10]

For the best inforamtion on flag history, see the Elks club