How would you handle this?

[kittle]

 

 

How would you handle this? For Tenderfoot rank, a scout is supposed to show improvement on pull-ups, push up, etc. My son told me that when they did the pull-ups the first time around, they were allowed to 'jump' with the first one. Now they are doing them in a different place and are unable to do this. My son (who is working at improving his upper body strength) is unable to show improvement because he can't do the one that he did before. Should he request that they start the original number again or just keep working at it. It has been almost 2 years. He is getting very discouraged and is beginning to wonder if he will ever be able to advance.

 

Any and all suggestions would be appreciated.

[MarkS]

I'm not certain that the work done two years ago should even be counted. The improvement should be shown after 30 days. My son never completed a whole pull-up when he advanced to Tenderfoot. His SPL counted fractions of a pullup. The first time he pulled himself up a quarter of the way and 30 days later about half.

 

Suggest your boy ask that they start over from scratch on pull-ups (and only pull-ups if that's all that's left) and do it the same way 30 days later.

 

A gray area I see in the requirement is that the boy is supposed to show improvement in the activities listed in requirement 10a after practicing for 30 days. It doesn't say whether the activities are to be counted individually or collectively (e.g., it doesn't say show improvement in each of the activities listed in requirement 10a after practicing for 30 days).

 

If I were a Scoutmaster and advising my SPL on how to accept completion on this requirement, I'd suggest that if a boy could demonstrate that he effectively practiced for 30 days, improved on some and didn't regress on any, and made his best effort in each attempt, to use his best judgement rather than the absolute numbers on whether or not the boy met the requirement.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[t158sm]

Kittle:

Nothing says that the first attempt at the fitness requirements cannot be repeated.

The requirement only says -

 

10a. Record your best in the following tests: ...

 

10b. Show improvement in the activities listed in requirement 10a after practicing for 30 days.

 

More power to him this time around

 

[MarkS]

t158sm said, "Nothing says that the first attempt at the fitness requirements cannot be repeated."

 

Right, to streamline things and make the process work a little faster for the scout though, I would consider it acceptable to count the last attempt as a new first attempt if the boy failed to show improvement or even regressed. Have the boy try every month until he does better than the month before. He only has to achieve it one time.

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm...

 

2 Years and still can't do a pull-up? Is there an overweight issue? Otherwise, I think this boy needs better coachin'. I'd kill an extra bird with the stone and suggest the boy work on Personal Fitness MB (for real, with a counselor ). The time spent really workin' out a 90-day fitness plan with someone knowledgeable will help him a lot in other ways, and will get him both a required MB and TF, eh? Remember, he can get all of his other T-2-1 requirements done and then pass 'em all in one night when he finishes this last requirement.

 

Lots of times I've seen boys go through a growth spurt and end up in the short term doin' fewer pushups/pullups while their muscles catch up with their new size, eh?

 

I suggest this to all the units I work with:

 

1) If a boy can do 2 or more "good" pullups, make the requirement "doing one more."

2) If a boy can do only 0 or 1 pullups, substitute the "flexed arm hang" instead, just the way the Presidential Fitness Test or military academies do. Improvement then means "hang longer." But hangin' is also the best way to build up strength to do real pullups.

 

If your unit insists on real pull-ups, I'd restart the clock and get your lad to try to go from 0 to 1. To train for this, have him start in the "up" position, then slowly lower himself on a slow 5-count, then step back up and repeat.

 

Do as many of these "anti-pullups" as he can in keepin' with the 5-count, then take a short rest, and do as many as he can on a slow 3-count. Do this 3 times a week. Every 3rd week, only do it once during the week to give him some extra "recovery time."

 

I betcha in a month and a half he'll have his one pullup.

 

Of course, if there are severe overweight issues, helpin' him work on those may be a far greater gift to him than TF.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

As the others have said the requirement states 30 days, not 2 years.

 

However, if he has been working on his upper body strength for 2 years, I can not understand why there has not been even a tiny bit of improvement.

 

It says show improvement, not become a body builder. As others have noted even 1/2 of a pull-up more is an improvement.

 

Have your son talk to his SM, Advancement Chair, or whoever is in charge of signing off on this requirement. After 2 years with no advancement your SM should be stepping in to see what is going wrong.

 

[Hunt]

"2 Years and still can't do a pull-up?"

 

Some of us have gone more than 40 years without being able to do one. Depending on the ratio of the boy's body weight to his upper arm strength, he may simply not be able to do enough in 30 days to go from 0 to 1. I think it is absurd, bordering on cruel, to hold a boy's advancement to Tenderfoot for 2 years solely based on this single element of a multi-part requirement, especially if it's agreed that he has tried hard and has done his best. I agree with the suggestions to allow him to show improvement in a partial pullup or in a flexed arm-hang over 30 days, starting now--although I think an even better approach would be to just forget it, accept the improvement in the other elements of the fitness requirement, and do some serious reexamination of what advancement is all about.

[kittle]

First I want to say that there isn't an overweight issue and he has gotten serious about it for the last 2 or 3 months. He has been doing bench presses and arm curls to work on his arm strength. I suggested to him the method that Beavah described. We have an old swing set in the front yard that he can practice on. I also suggested that he ask them to start the count again. Now we will see if he is willing to ask.

 

I also wanted to add that he has had 3 SMs in the last 2 years. We are hoping that this new SM will last, his son is crossing over in Feb.(This message has been edited by kittle)

[Beavah]

Yah, that helps, kittle.

 

Pullups are a lot of back/shoulder strength, not (just) arm strength. The arm curls won't help him much with pullups. Bench presses will help with pushups, but not pullups, eh?

 

Great time to get Personal Fitness MB as part of the deal, especially since he's at the age where he's developin' a bit of discipline (workin' on it the last 2-3 months).

 

Done well, this can be a "big victory" that shoots him to 1st Class with some MB's and a lot of momentum and pride goin' forward. Here's rootin' for him!

 

[SR540Beaver]

30 days or 2 years shouldn't matter. The requirement says after 30 days folks, not exactly 30 days. We'd be sunk if it was exact since we had 24 new scouts this year and I've held sessions for this requirement almost monthly this year due to boys missing meetings for various reasons. Heck, I had to keep a spreadsheet with each element of the requirement listed along with a date column for each element since some boys only got bits and pieces of the requirements done. I've still got several boys who only need the second set of pull-ups to complete the whole requirement. They did the first set back in May and it is now December. I see no reason to make them start over since it has been over half a year. We are not supposed to add, change or delete requirements. 2 years is well "after 30 days" and if they did zero the first go around, 1 is all they need to show improvment "after 30 days".

 

Many boys at this age just don't have a lot of upper body strength. Heck, many adults don't either. I'm 49 and I've never been able to do more than 1 or 2 ever in my life.....and I used to work out at the gym religiously 3 times a week. I could leg press 4 times what I could bench press or lift.

 

We count fractions for the boys who can't do it. If they couldn't do a single pull up the first time and can only get a half pull up after 30 days, that is "improvement".

[fotoscout]

If it's been two years and he hasn't been given his Tenderfoot Badge because of a pullup it's time to look for a new Troop!!!!!

[EagleInKY]

I think this troop is making this way more complicated than it should. We encourage the boys to show any improvement. In some cases, it's going from not being able to "budge" to getting half way up. Others it's been getting them to be able to "hang" with a chinup longer. I've never believed this requirement requires you to go from "zero to one" or "four to five". But to show improvement. That can be measured many ways. Eleven year olds often don't have the physical development yet to accomplish chinups. So we have to work with them in whatever way possible.

 

On the other hand, with any diligent work, almost any boy should be able to see improvement in all areas.

[Lisabob]

Not to change the thread but practically everyone here has agreed that many 10-12 year olds lack the upper body strength to do pull ups, due to the nature of their physical development at that age. I agree - I've watched my own son and practically all of his scouting buddies have this same problem. So can someone tell me then, why is this pull up requirement in the tenderfoot rank?! Seems to me the folks who brought us "ages and stages" might also profit from revisiting this requirement and perhaps changing it to flex arm hang or something a little more developmentally appropriate for the typical scout-rising-tenderfoot.

 

 

[local1400]

Im a grown man and I cant do a pull-up! I think this scout is not being served very well by the program. Most all his peers who joined with him must be F.C. or Star by now, so help him now or he may be another sad statistic.

[Beavah]

Not to change the thread but practically everyone here has agreed that many 10-12 year olds lack the upper body strength to do pull ups, due to the nature of their physical development at that age. ... So can someone tell me then, why is this pull up requirement in the tenderfoot rank?!

 

Da Presidential Fitness Test 50th percentile for 10-year-olds can do 2 pullups. So almost half of the 10 year olds can only do one or zero. I agree with Lisa'bob on this, eh? It's not a great test if fully half of the kids can't do it, or reasonably show improvement. The increment is also wrong. To improve by 1 pullup requires jumpin' up at least 10 percentile points in your class for most kids, often more. To improve by one pushup is typically less than a 5 percentile jump.

 

It'd be one thing for fitness MB, eh? There you might set some reasonable goals for kids to get to after a couple of years. Promote fitness and all that. But we're tryin' to do First Class First Year, and use this requirement just to show kids that a little effort can yield some success (to encourage 'em at TF), eh?

 

So we all end up tweakin' this one for half the kids, (or holdin' kids at Tenderfoot until they're 15).

 

IIRC, this requirement is an unchanged relic from well before FCFY. Da program materials are compiled by committee, eh? Good folks, but they don't catch everything.