Troop Traditions vs. Boy-Led

[Hunt]

This is spun off from a uniforming thread, and mention of a troop with traditions of strict uniforming and consequences for incomplete uniforms. This got me to thinking about where there may be a tension between troop traditions and boy leadership. In my son's troop, we had some issues of this kind with activities the troop "always" does--until we learned that none of the boys currently in the troop were all that interested in the activity (fishing, for example). To what extent should the current PLC be influenced by troop traditions? Of course, the boys may want to carry on traditions that they agree with and understand...but what should adult leaders do when the boys propose changing a cherished (at least by the adults) tradition of the troop?

[OldGreyEagle]

Ok, in the spirit of the season,

 

Who, day and night, must scramble for a living,

Feed a wife and children, say his daily prayers?

And who has the right, as master of the house,

To have the final word at home?

 

The Papa, the Papa! Tradition.

The Papa, the Papa! Tradition.

 

Etc.

 

What makes a tradtion? To me a tradition is a link to the past from the present, it means something. To some, the Christmas tree is a tradition evoking memories and stories long ago, the same can be said of the menorah. Why do many of us eat turkey for Thanksgiving? We don't cook it a lot during the rest of the year, when one serves turkey its regarded as a special occassion. A tradition is a tradition because those familiar with it find it important and want to communicate its importantnace to the next generation. If the older generation can't make the younger generation understand the tradition then it mustn't be that important to the older generation elseways the passion, the importance, the essence would be communicated.

 

If a Troop has a tradition, then its up to the older boys to communicate the reason, passion and understanding of what that tradition means. If they dont regard it highly, neither will the new scouts and it will be lost. If a Troop does a tradition because the adults want to, then we really arent that far from what brian buf talks about, running a program that appeals to the adults and not the youth and I dont think anyone wants to do that

[Stosh]

This is an interesting spin off. I'm the one with the traditional uniform issue that started the thread.

 

Your agenda, however, is quite misleading. Troop Traditions vs. Boy-led. This would seem to imply that boy led units have no traditions. What happens if it's the boys who pomote the tradition? Your subject heading seems to imply this is not possible.

 

I'm all for boy led units, but one must remember this isn't a free-for-all organization. Certain scouting traditions are not optional. The Scout Law is in the 1911 handbook and has been a tradition ever since. Sometimes a little regimentation gives the sense of discipline and regimentation that the boys seem to like and promote. As a matter of face, a little self-discipline isn't going to hurt anyone. A scout uniform used to mean something. The question arises in today's world, does it anymore? Maybe we ought to just dump the whole thing and not worry about the added expense of purchasing any kind of uniform or t-shirt or anything that seems to smack of scout pride. The "Grandma went to Vegas and all I got was this lousy T-shirt" shirt should be sufficient for any OA ordeal.

 

Tradition is the life-blood of the Scouting Movement. It is what makes it what it is and why it stands apart from all other youth programs in the US.

 

When you have one's honor patrol setting the example of a full uniform with neckerchief and hat as the standard and all the other patrols clammoring about getting their own, "Boy Led" and "Tradition" stand in the same place.

[Eagledad]

>>I'm all for boy led units, but one must remember this isn't a free-for-all organization. Certain scouting traditions are not optional.

[Eamonn]

I have never had any dealings with other youth organizations, other than Scouting.

I have over the years been told that what sets Scouting apart from other youth organizations is the involvement of youth leadership.

 

As I see it (And I kinda think some don't see it the same way!!)

When anyone joins an organization we agree to do our best to follow the rules/ guidelines/ call it what you will of that organization.

Before joining we should make sure that the values of the organization are in line with our own personal values.

When I look at the BSA and Scouting I find that my values and the values of the BSA are very much the same.

I find the values of Scouting in the ideals of Scouting.

I'm happy to serve as a member toward helping the BSA do what it can to make the Vision and mission of the organization become a reality.

As an adult leader in the BSA I accept the methods used by the BSA for the program in which I serve.

This isn't due or because of tradition, it's just to my mind playing the game by the rules.

OJ plays for the HS soccer team. Before each game makes really wonderful pepperoni rolls, which she distributes to all the players. She has been doing this for four or five years. The players have come up with the idea that these rolls are in some way lucky??

The rolls have become a tradition, but the rules they play soccer by are from who ever sets the rules for HS soccer.

A youth led (We have female Sea Scouts) unit is a goal I think we should all be trying to reach.

In the time that I have been a forum member I'm sure just about everyone must be sick and tired of me going on about: "Train them, Trust Them, Let them lead"

In my book every youth should have the opportunity to question whatever he or she wants, using the system that we have in place. In our case the monthly Quarterdeck Meetings, in Troops the PLC.

While we do want them to show leadership and I would hope we try and provide the program (Activities) that they want, along with giving them the authority to set certain rules/ guidelines/...

Our Quarterdeck decides what dues will be, how money raised will be spent or distributed, what the dress code for events will be.

They decided what uniform we would wear. Being as Sea Scouting comes under Venturing, they have that authority.

Some things however they really don't have the authority to change.

They can't decide that they want to replace me!! My appointment didn't come from them, it came from our CO. There is a lot of things that as long as they belong to the Ship they are unable to do.

While I would hope and do try to accommodate what they want, sometimes it just isn't possible. I do have a life and commitments outside of the Ship and I can't always be available to do things when they want, so if they need me to drive? They are out of luck.

Being as we are a new unit, we don't have a history to fall back on.

Still somethings seem to be becoming traditions. We always seem to stop at the first rest area in Maryland after leaving the PA Turnpike!! They have started calling it "Our Stop" on the way home we eat at Wendy's. We serve Dr Pepper at every QD meeting.

They start each meeting with the Pledge and the Sea Scout Promise.

They have come up with a rotation of who is in charge of the directions when we go places.

For my part I think that the big thing to remember is that my role is to serve the Scouts in the Ship. I'm not here to serve some tradition that they don't want, like or require.

When they ask for something that can't be? I do my best to explain why it can't be. Nearly always it seems that they respect the fact that someone has listened and is being honest with them. They or should I say some are not happy with the reason, but do try and understand.

Telling a Scout that we are doing something or going to do something just because we have always done it!! Would in my view not be hearing what they are saying, not be being honest and would show a lack of respect.

Lately I seem to be telling them that they will only get out of the Ship, what they put in!! If I were to start asking them to put into something that had little or no meaning to them. - They wouldn't be getting anything out and I'd be telling lies.

Traditions are fine and dandy as long as it's fine and dandy with the youth members, when they are not they only serve to get in the way of the important stuff.

Eamonn.

[t158sm]

tradition

noun

1. the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, esp. by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition.

2. something that is handed down

3. a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting: The rebellious students wanted to break with tradition.

4. a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices.

5. a customary or characteristic method or manner: The winner took a victory lap in the usual track tradition.

 

Try not to confuse having gotten into a rut with a tradition. Having a ceremony to present the new charter to the chartering organization each year or awarding a special troop neckerchief to each new Eagle Scout are both traditions. Going fishing every year because "it's what we've always done" is sorta stuck in a rut.

 

Just from my own observations of somewhere around 30 years of Scouting - the units that are stricter on full uniforming tend to be more adult led. To me the full uniforming requirement would fall more under adult imposed rule and not under tradition.

 

"When you have one's honor patrol setting the example of a full uniform with neckerchief and hat as the standard and all the other patrols clammoring about getting their own, "Boy Led" and "Tradition" stand in the same place."

Here I have to disagree. A patrol in full uniform serves as a goal for other patrols to strive toward rather than an actual tradition per se. Most certainly boy led troops can have traditions, I just fail to see how this could be one.

Just a question of curiosity jblake47. How old is your troop?

 

The goal of Scouting "in short" is to teach Scouts to lead themselves. (Not talking about the aims and methods here, just the basic goal of Scouting) Whatever we as adults inject into the program aside from this takes away from the program.

 

The Scout Law is a tradition?

What? Thats like saying Old Glory and the Star Spangled Banner are traditions. Something that is a core value like the Scout Law and the Scout Oath go far beyond anything that could be considered a tradition. Would a Christian consider the Bible to be a tradition? Would a Muslim consider the Quran to be a tradition? Something that stands as a basis for a belief, as the reason for a way of thinking. A mere tradition. I think not.

[Eamonn]

I didn't see this thread being about uniform?

Uniform is a method in Cub and Boy Scouting.

I see uniforming as a goal.

If we accept (and not everyone does!!) that we do not the authority to alter or change the uniform, the goal should be to have everyone in full correct official uniform.

How we go about reaching the goal is very important.

Sadly it seems many units /leaders seem to have admitted defeat, said it can't be done and have made up a uniform of their own making. Which if they were to follow the guidelines the really shouldn't.

Some units have taken a very strong arm approach; sending Scouts home if they turn up without their uniform o refusing to allow them BOR's.

This is just as wrong as the units that make up their own uniforms.

We as the adults should be looking for ways to have our youth members want to wear their uniform. We should do our best to set the example and be willing to help each Scout reach his own goal of being in full uniform.

Of course just like Youth led, there will be times when it's real easy and everything just falls into place and on the flip side there will be times when it seems like it's never going to happen.

A Troop from our District send 12 Scouts to the last Jambo. The parents of these Scouts all went out and made sure that they had at least two full uniforms.

A few weeks after the Jambo I was invited to a COH. I was a little taken back to see about six of them not in uniform.

I mentioned it to their SM,He said that they didn't like wearing Scout uniform! I said that I had not had a problem with it at the Jamboree.

He said that was different that they were told that they had to be in uniform.

I told him that wasn't what they were told.

I had told them and their parents that all Scouts attending the Jamboree were expected to be in full uniform.

Eamonn.

[John-in-KC]

Eamonn, my friend,

 

Look first and foremost at who you are and who you have been in your Council. Look also at the connotations of what was said:

 

"He said that was different that they were told that they had to be in uniform.

 

"I told him that wasn't what they were told.

 

"I had told them and their parents that all Scouts attending the Jamboree were expected to be in full uniform."

(Emphasis added).

 

You and I are of similar ages, probably. Our Eagles are I believe no more than a year or two apart. Eamonn, when you speak, who YOU are places a context message into the words you say.

 

I can see where a 13-16 year old and his parents, having heard what Mr E said, processed it as "I have to have uniforms for this, he told me so."

[Stosh]

tradition

noun

1. the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, esp. by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition.

2. something that is handed down

3. a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting: The rebellious students wanted to break with tradition.

4. a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices.

5. a customary or characteristic method or manner: The winner took a victory lap in the usual track tradition.

 

Yes, the scout Law is a tradition. If one means tradition is all the superficial la-de-da added onto a basic core belief, then that's fine, but if that core belief is passed down from one generation to the next, then it, too, is tradition.

 

By the way Old Glory is not a tradition, the tradition is that the flag changes every time a state is added.

 

The flag we have today is not traditionally the flag we have had as a country. We have had several different flags.

 

I guess your definition of tradition is far different than mine.

 

[t158sm]

"By the way Old Glory is not a tradition, the tradition is that the flag changes every time a state is added."

 

"The Scout Law is a tradition?

What? Thats like saying Old Glory and the Star Spangled Banner are traditions. Something that is a core value like the Scout Law and the Scout Oath go far beyond anything that could be considered a tradition."

 

No, as my original post said Old Glory is not a tradition. The Star Spangled Banner is not a tradition. Neither is the Scout Law a tradition. A more suitable comparison might be saying the Scout Law is a tradition is like saying the Pledge of Allegiance is a tradition.

 

Yes our definitions of what a tradition is are different.

[Hunt]

I'd like to pick up on the difference between being in a rut and holding on to a tradition. I don't think you can differentiate between these baseed on the nature of the activity. I think the difference is in the attitude of the group toward the activity. For example, I agree that the fishing trip was a "rut," because few really wanted to do it. On the other hand, for my son's troop, there are "traditional" events (like an annual pancake breakfast) that everybody looks forward to...nobody wants to change it. It seems to me that the same would be true for more ceremonial traditions like ceremonies and uniform practices--how much is the tradition valued, and even more importantly, by whom it is valued. If it is really only valued by the adult leaders, and the boys go along with it to humor the adults, I think it is also a rut. Perhaps a way to determine what category something is in would be to discretely ask individual boys "why does this troop do ....?" If he says "because Mr. SM requires it," I think you have an adult-run tradition. If he says something like, "We like to look better than the other troops," you have a boy-supported tradition. If he says, "I have no idea," then it's probably a rut.

[AvidSM]

Some troop traditions are worth keeping and some are not. If a troop is boy-lead, I would think it would be normal to change some traditions depending on what the boys want to do.

 

Using your annual fishing trip as an example - if over the years the group of boys who liked to fish have left the troop and the current youth leaders has voted to do something else, I don't think that's breaking with tradition. My troop tends to repeat a certain trip for a few years and then we drop it.

 

The traditions worth keeping are the one's that define the troop. The boys tend to take pride in these and usually don't questions their origin or reason. Some get changed or modified over the years, due to the natural attrition within a unit.

 

If a tradition can't survive a boy-led troop, it wasn't worth doing anyway.

[msnowman]

Sometimes it is hard to get the adults to let go of "traditions" that they hold near. Nephew's Troop has custom neckerchiefs that the SM's wife embrodiers (and has for several years, before he became SM). However, the SPL has asked if the troop could design a new design. He was told no, this one is special (it might have been when the adults who ran the group a few years ago came up with it but they and their boys have aged out).

 

IMHO this is an example of an adult tradtion that is getting in the way of boy-led.

 

YiS

Michelle

[Eamonn]

Christmas is a holiday, has been for a while.

I don't see it not being a holiday anytime soon.

In Her Who must Be Obeyed home they opened gifts on Christmas Eve.

My family opened gifts on Christmas Day.

Christmas remained the holiday.

But our family traditions were different.

We now visit her family on Christmas Eve and exchange gifts then, but keep the ones for the people and dogs who live in our house till Christmas Day.

If at sometime in the future, OJ wasn't able to come home until the day after Christmas, we would wait till Boxing Day.

The holiday would still be Christmas, but the tradition or way we celebrate it would be different.

Very much the same can be said about Scouting, we all work toward the same vision and Mission, but how we deliver the program can be different and if we remain flexible can and should be youth led.

Eamonn.

[EagleInKY]

E - You are exactly right. As I was reading the thread I was thinking of the same type of example. My wife's family always celebrated Thanksgiving Dinner on Thursday and opened presents on Christmas Eve. My family was always traveling on Thanksgiving and had dinner on Friday or Saturday, but we always opened presents Christmas day. How fortunate our family traditions complemented each other. If they hadn't worked out so well, we would have adjusted our traditions to fit the new situations we were faced with. And, of course, our traditions have changed over time.

 

Our troop also has traditions. Even though we've only been around 4 years, we have several that we do:

- We have a "Tenderfoot Weekend" Campout shortly after crossover to teach new scouts the basics.

- We gather for a troop photo in our camp t-shirts in front of the sign before we leave Summer Camp.

- We have a pot-luck lunch after church on Scout Sunday and follow with a Court of Honor.

- We adopt a needy family or soldier at Christmas.

- and so forth....

 

These are part of the troop's legacy. Hopefully, some of these traditions will long outlast me or the boys who are currently in the troop. And hopefully new traditions will be developed over time as current ones fade away.