Female Scout Leaders-Here we go again

[BrentAllen]

Kudu,

Do you actually know any of these "hothouse" Eagles, or is this just empty rhetoric? All the Eagles I have met, or read about in the newspaper here in Dunwoody, have been to Philmont, Northern Tier and/or Sea Base. Maybe that is just how Scouting is done in your area of the country?

 

"2) Women (and men) who are not the outdoors type should not be Scouters or the trainers of Scouters."

So... there is no place for the non-"outdoors type" in Scouting?? Not even for a Treasurer or Secretary or Committee Chair or Committee member? Wow! Glad I don't live in your world! We have non-"outdoors types" who want to participate, and have great business skills to serve as the above. I'm not sure I see your point on how being able to start a fire in wet weather makes one a good Treasurer. Or how that affects the boys.

Also, please tell me exactly why one would need to be an "outdoors type" to train Committee members? Or Tiger Leaders? Or Cub Leaders? Those new leaders need to learn how the program operates, not how to take a Troop on a 3-night backpacking trip. Have you even looked at the syllabus for Cub Leader training? BALOO is for teaching Cub Leaders how to take their Packs car camping. That is about as outdoor as they get, which is very suitable for 1st and 2nd graders.

 

"4) The only reason that my views about women in Scouting are controversial is that the BSA discriminates against girls."

Actually, you couldn't be further from the truth. The reason your views are controversial is because they are sexist, chauvinistic and outdated. For example, see your reference to women Cub Scout leaders (who are Scouters, BTW) as "yellow blouses."

 

Finally, I've been thinking about the origins of Scouting and of WB while away on our Pack camping trip this weekend. When B-P formed Scouting and WB, his country was still imperialistic. Even though he didn't want Scouting to be military in nature, I think he envisioned Scouting as producing young men who could go anywhere in the world and take care of themselves while serving God and country. Today, in the US, the greatest need for Cubmasters and Scoutmasters is to build high performance teams to deliver the program. They need to be able to teach their boys how to do the same. Those skills are going to help boys succeed - both in the outdoors in a patrol, and eventually in the business world.

SM's can hire the professional climbers or whitewater guides to lead those parts of the trips. I see the greatest threat to Scouting as being parents too busy with work and other commitments to devote the time needed to make Scouting work. Where they need help is in building and working with teams, to be more efficient with the time they can give to their unit. 21st Century WB reflects that need - for both Cubmasters and Scoutmasters.

I would suggest additional outdoor training for SM's, as has been mentioned in other threads. For those moms or dads that "get stuck" with the SM position because the previous leader retired and no one else would step up, I think a good outdoor course would make a world of difference in how they deliver their program.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

[Kudu]

BrentAllen writes:

 

Do you actually know any of these "hothouse" Eagles, or is this just empty rhetoric?

 

Yes I do Brent, and thank you for asking!

 

When I first volunteered as an adult leader in the BSA, the Scoutmaster of the Troop was a cotton-wearing hothouse Eagle. Soon after I joined he got angry when the Scouts voted to attend the Council's annual "Klondike Campout." He vetoed their plans saying that sleeping in tents in the snow was not real Scouting. He also expressed similar anger when one of the Patrol Leaders said that his Patrol wanted the Troop to go backpacking.

 

He preferred to rent cabins in non-BSA camps because they had central heating (the thermostat prevents the cabin from getting chilly during the night), microwave ovens, and cable TV. At a Court of Honor a week before a winter campout in one of these cabins, a mommy in the audience expressed concern over my suggestion that Scouts could fulfill the Tenderfoot requirement "Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch" if they pitched the tents Saturday during the day and waited until bedtime to remove their warm sleeping bags, mats, and extra blankets from the centrally-heated cabin.

 

He replied that as long as he was Scoutmaster, no Scout would ever sleep in a tent when the temperature was less than 50 degrees. This mommy had called all of the other mommies in the Troop because of her concern over my "reckless" idea of sleeping in a tent in the winter, and you could literally hear the tension in the room break into relieved titters of appreciation. It is hard to convey the pride and joy that these parents always expressed in having found a "commonsense Eagle Scout" to be Scoutmaster of their sons' Troop.

 

More recently, one of my Assistant Scoutmasters, an Eagle Scout who never participates in our winter camping or canoe trips, came up with the idea of having his son's Patrol pack a bagged lunch in empty backpacks and take a day hike to satisfy the Camping Merit Badge optional backpacking requirement. As he pointed out to the Merit Badge Counselor, the requirement merely states "Backpack for at least four miles." Nowhere does it actually specify that the backpacks have anything in them! He was really angry when I pointed out to the Counselor that their day hike had been less than a mile.

 

This tension only increased when I caught him trying to correct this error by talking the Counselor into letting Scouts wearing empty backpacks walk around the block during weekly Troop meetings until they finally reached the four mile specification that I was being so "difficult" about.

 

I was able to shame the Counselor into rejecting this idea but in the end he got his way by scheduling a "Patrol campout" for his son's Patrol on the same weekend as a Troop campout (so that I wouldn't attend). Afterward he notified the Counselor that the Scouts had fulfilled the requirement by walking with backpacks in circles around the perimeter of his suburban woodlot until they had walked a total of four miles.

 

Since then I have refused to sign blue cards for Camping Merit Badge unless the Scout has already been on a simple four mile weekend backpacking trip with me.

 

I also encountered a local hothouse Eagle Scout District Executive when a mommy Charter Representative decided to dumb down the Scout Troop that a friend of mine had established. And over the years I have encountered a number of additional hothouse Eagle Scout Scoutmaster participants while staffing Council outdoor training courses. They all seem to share a disdain for winter camping, backpacking, and canoeing, and are very quick to point out that they are Eagle Scouts and the BSA does not require these skills to be an Eagle Scout.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that the BSA has neutered Eagle Scout by removing so many of Baden-Powell's "Scoutcraft" requirements, including the Expeditions that B-P required at every stage in advancement. In a free country this would not be a problem, but our government has established religion with a monopoly on Scouting so that Americans are forced to define "Scouting" as whatever the BSA says it is.

 

Certainly this fits the needs of mommies and daddies who feel that "Eagle Scout" is an important addition to their son's personal business resume but that outdoor skills are not relevant to the tough competitive business climate of the 21st century.

 

Baden-Powell called this kind of thing "Parlour Scouting" and Americans should be free to establish alternative Scouting associations that retain Baden-Powell's Scouting program.

 

I wrote:

 

"2) Women (and men) who are not the outdoors type should not be Scouters or the trainers of Scouters."

 

BrentAllen replied:

 

So... there is no place for the non-"outdoors type" in Scouting?? Not even for a Treasurer or Secretary or Committee Chair or Committee member? Wow! Glad I don't live in your world! We have non-"outdoors types" who want to participate, and have great business skills to serve as the above.

 

Let them learn these "business skills" elsewhere, not in Wood Badge.

 

Perhaps what we have here is a failure to communicate because you wrote:

 

For example, see your reference to women Cub Scout leaders (who are Scouters, BTW)...

 

Around here (and in England) the word "Scouter" means Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters only. Cub Scout leaders are referred to as "Cubbers."

 

Treasurers, Secretaries, Committee Chairs, Committee members, and Cub Scout leaders therefore by definition are not "Scouters."

 

I wrote

 

"4) The only reason that my views about women in Scouting are controversial is that the BSA discriminates against girls."

 

BrentAllen replied,

 

Actually, you couldn't be further from the truth. The reason your views are controversial is because they are sexist, chauvinistic and outdated.

 

BrentAllen, the reason that your views are so stupid is because they are just plain stupid.

 

Personal insults do nothing to establish that an idea actually is sexist, chauvinistic, "outdated," or (in your case) stupid. In addition, personal insults do nothing to explain why what you label as sexist, chauvinistic, "outdated" or (in your case) stupid ideas don't actually work.

 

Now let me be perfectly clear before anyone accuses me of being against stupid people and spins a "Stupid Scoutmasters: Here We Go Again" thread :-)

 

By definition the average IQ is 100.

 

I happen to believe that Wood Badge should not be dumbed down to meet the needs of people with an IQ of 100 any more than Baden-Powell's outdoor skills should be neutered from the Scout Section outdoor course Baden-Powell called Wood Badge so as to meet the "One Minute Manager" needs of hothouse Eagles and people wearing yellow blouses.

 

Kudu

 

[SueM]

As another female SM, I too see it both ways...very capable women involved through out our district in both programs, and a fair number of male leaders who do not understand the program and if anything are -easier- on the boys meeting requirements then the women are! I grew up on a farm and have lots of practical outdoor experience in many areas that many men don't and am quite comfortable in the outdoors!

 

I am all for the premise of scouting providing adult male role models for boys..that's why my OWN son is involved! His dad doesn't have time to do much with him and is not particularly outdoorsy..we are military and have no family around to provide other male role models, etc. so I did look to the scouting program to provide him with that opportunity, as well as other opportunities.

 

I feel that even though I am the SM, there are plenty of other males in the troop for him to look to for an example. That said...there are also boys out there who may not any female role models in their lives due to one circumstance or another, and I don't think it hurts them to see capable women in the leadership roles to provide a role model for them too. Both situation provide a balance for many boys today. I do feel though from personal experience, that as a female SM I have to work much harder at the job to get the respect of the boys, then a male would. Some of the boys..and even some of the adults treat me at times like I do not know what I'm talking about when I try to run the program the way it...should be run. It sure gets very discouraging at times..

 

sue

[BrentAllen]

Kudu,

It appears you like hurling personal insults, just not receiving them, eh?

 

Pick up any BSA Scout book with a glossary and look up the definition of Scouter. I will make it easy for you:

 

Scouter: a registered adult member of the BSA.

 

That's not my definition, that is the BSA's. Committee members, Treasurers, Secretaries, Cub Scout leaders - any registered leaders - all fit that definition. They all serve vital roles in making the Troop work. Now I guess you have one more item on your list of things to complain about the BSA.

 

In all my years in Scouting, I have never met an Eagle Scout as you have described. Most of the Eagles I know have been to Philmont, and some go on one other High Adventure trip. We don't have mommies wanting Junior to walk around with empty backpacks or sleep in cabins. If I understand you correctly, my Tigers, who were camping with the Pack this weekend in 38 F weather - in tents - are tougher campers than your Eagle Scouts? Well, to borrow another line from you - "I don't know what you are doing in [your part of the country], but just don't call it Scouting!"

 

Here are some excerpts from press releases of a few of our local 2005 Eagle Scouts:

"John has served as Senior Patrol Leader, Patrol Leader, and Troop Guide. Johns favorite experience in scouting was backpacking 70 miles over 12 days with 18 other scouts and adults from his Troop at Philmont Scout Reservation in Cimarron, New Mexico in 2003, where he served as one of the two crew chiefs. John also enjoyed the challenge backpacking for a week this summer with 19 scouts and adult leaders from the Troop at the Double H Ranch High Adventure Base in New Mexico, serving as navigator.

John is a senior at Wesleyan School, where he is a member of the National Honor Society, French Honor Society, co-captain of the Varsity Wrestling team, student government officer, and participant on a mission trip to Jamaica this year. John is a member of Dunwoody United Methodist Church, is active in its Youth Program, and participated in last years mission trip to Brazil."

 

"Andy has been involved in scouting since he was a six year old Tiger Cub with Pack 494, then at Dunwoody Baptist Church. He officially joined Troop 477 in 1999 and has been an active member ever since earning 24 merit badges. He has participated in numerous Troop activities including campouts, hikes, Scouting for Food, house building at Charis Foundation and summer camps. Andy has served in numerous leadership positions within the Troop and was selected as a member of Scoutings honor society, the Order of the Arrow. Andy greatly enjoyed his wilderness experience at Philmont Scout Reservation in Cimarron, New Mexico where he and other Scouts and Adult leaders backpacked for 70 miles over ten days.

Andy is a member of Dunwoody Baptist Church. He is active in swimming and is a member of the schools record setting boys relay team. He swims regularly at Dynamo and enjoys camping, hiking and working on his grandparents farm."

 

"Brock has served in numerous leadership positions within the Troop and was selected by other scouts as a member of scoutings honor society, the Order of the Arrow. Brock is a member of All Saints Catholic Church in Dunwoody, and in 2003 earned the Ad Altare Dei award, the Roman Catholic religious award for Boy Scouts. He has especially enjoyed backpacking in New Mexico with scout and adult members of the Troop for ten days in 2003 at Philmont Scout Ranch and for seven days this summer at the Double H High Adventure Base.

Brock graduated from Dunwoody High School in June, 2005. He played soccer and swam on the swim team for four years at Dunwoody. Brock played soccer in Italy with his club soccer team in the summer of 2004, and recently returned from England where the team played British under-19 teams. Brock will attend and play soccer for Methodist College in Fayetteville, North Carolina this fall."

[Kudu]

BrentAllen writes:

 

It appears you like hurling personal insults, just not receiving them, eh?

 

Yes! This is new for me but I can see why you enjoy it so much :-)

 

BrentAllen writes:

 

Pick up any BSA Scout book with a glossary and look up the definition of Scouter. I will make it easy for you:

 

Scouter: a registered adult member of the BSA.

 

Brent is right and I was wrong!

 

It is hard to get a copy of the official Bylaws so I can't confirm if this reflects an official decision of the BSA to further blur the distinction between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, or if this was written by the same BSA authors who misquote Baden-Powell.

 

Hillcourt quotes the official BSA Bylaws as follows:

 

Definition of "Scouters" and "Cubbers"

 

Section 1, Clause 2--"Scouters is the collective designation for all registered Scout Officials and Adult Members (Active and Associate) other than Boy Scouts, classified as Council (Local and National) Scouters and Troop Scouters.

 

"Cubbers" is the collective designation for registered Pack Committeemen, Cubmasters and Assistant Cubmasters.

 

Even this definition would include Committee Members, so I stand corrected.

 

What I should have written is that people who are not the outdoor type should not be Scoutmasters or Assistant Scoutmasters, or the trainers of Scoutmasters or Assistant Scoutmasters.

 

BrentAllen writes:

 

If I understand you correctly, my Tigers, who were camping with the Pack this weekend in 38 F weather - in tents - are tougher campers than your Eagle Scouts? Well, to borrow another line from you - "I don't know what you are doing in [your part of the country], but just don't call it Scouting!"

 

Not my Eagle Scouts, but we seem to agree on that.

 

How about that? For once BrentAllen and I agree on everything :-)

 

Kudu

[BrentAllen]

Hey Kudu,

I strongly agree with you on the following:

"What I should have written is that people who are not the outdoor type should not be Scoutmasters or Assistant Scoutmasters, or the trainers of Scoutmasters or Assistant Scoutmasters." Absolutely agree!

We have found common ground! It might be small, but it is common ground! OK, group hug. Not too long.... That's enough.... :-)

[Gonzo1]

Kudu,

I'm an Eagle Scout (1980), served in all the usual troop leadership positions, attended Brownsea 2-2 when I was SPL, went to Philmont (1976), did lots of backpacking (with full packs), Even got elected into OA, became a Brotherhood member too. Camped i the rain, camped in the snow, Went to WB, SR-59. Never 'camped' in a cabin until a year ago when I took the family to KOA. So I guess I've been there, done that. You know, got the patch too.

 

For the life of me, I only know of two guys who claim to be Eagle Scouts, and frankly, I don't know that they were even Tenderfoot one day. They are also father and son. Both clueless.

 

About the only thing I agree with you (in this thread anyway) is that non-outdoors people should NOT be teaching outdoors skills to SM's, ASM's, etc. Perfectly fine though for Fast Start, New Leader Essentials, those 2 classes are video tape presentations with Q&A. Also that WB should not be dumbed down.

 

Sorry Brent, I think it should be for Boy Scout leaders only, they HAD a cub leader WB until the new program came out. I had an 8 day (3 weekend program), not the current 6 day program.

 

Wood Badge, well, I guess I'd rather see a return to the pre 21st century program. But even then, have ONLY qualified people attend, not the clueless.

 

There is a way we can have some of our cake and eat it too, Here's how: Just because something isn't required for a badge or rank, we can still do it anyway. SM, ASM, SPL etc, find a campground in advance and give patrols a map and compass, give them some bearings and let them go. You've already been there, send them down the road or trail, 10 minutes later, send the next patrol. Make an activity something like scouts having to lash something for some other purpose. Have them break camp sometime, pack up and hike, go 5 miles, set up camp. There, you got 4 miles plus one. No, it isn't adding to the requirements, but anyone who wants to use that hike for camping MB could. In other words, we can still teach them the skills they need so they can be better scouts. Give them the program , make it fun.

 

BTW, the guy who suggested that scouts walk with a sack lunch in empty packs should be keel hauled.

 

An area SM recently did a Mafeking type experience for his troop, if anyone is interested, send me a PM with your email address and I'll make a connection for you.

 

[emb021]

"I think it should be for Boy Scout leaders only, they HAD a cub leader WB until the new program came out."

 

I answered this on another thread, but, NO, there was NEVER a 'cub leader WB'.

 

What we had before 21st Century WB was:

 

* Boy Scout Leader WB

* Cub Scout Trainer WB (note: for trainers, not cub pack leaders)

* Varsity Scout WB

* Sea Badge (still exists)

* Explorer Leader Institute (NOT a National course, and only out west).

 

Before 21CWB, Cub Scout leaders and Venturing leaders (previously it would be Explorer leaders) were denied WB or a course of that caliber.

 

Cub Scout Trainer WB was a region-level course aimed ONLY at council/district trainer of Cub Scout leaders.

 

 

Now, I do have to agree that too many coming into the courses are not ready for it. I've felt that leaders should be going to WB in their 2nd or third year. Enought time that they've gotten Basic Training under their belt and time to put this into practice, been exposed to scouting, etc. But not too long that the leader has too many bad habits/ideas that will need to be corrected by WB.

 

There are too many cub scout leaders coming in who are 'in transition'. That is, they are at the end of their time as a Cub Scout leader, and about to move over to Boy Scouts (because their son is). These people should really wait until they've crossed over, got basic training as Boy Scout leaders, put it into practice, THEN go to WB. If a Cub Scout leader has a year or two under the belt and is going to continue as a cub scout leader, fine, go to WB.

 

Its also tiresome that some many leaders coming into WB are ignorant of a lot of stuff in scouting. That is, they have no idea of what is Jamboree, OA, Venturing, etc. Not that they are experts in these, but they haven't even heard of them! If they've been in scouting long enough, they should have been exposed to these things.

 

[BrentAllen]

To those who say WB shouldn't include Cub Leaders, I must respectfully disagree. WB is not a trivia game about Scout knowledge. It is about teaching the participants to be more effective leaders and building teams to lead their units. It is also about developing a vision for your unit, and working your ticket to improve it. I think my Pack has benefited from my participation. I also met and got to know other Scouters with whom I have worked on both District and Council activities. None of that would have happened if I had not attended WB.

 

I'm not worried about Cub Scout Leaders not knowing much about Jamborees or OA or Venturing - why should they? It is going to be a few years before they ever see it. I don't see how having or not having that knowledge is going to make any difference in how they run their unit. Learning how to be an effective leader who can build an efficient team to lead their unit certainly will.

[emb021]

"I'm not worried about Cub Scout Leaders not knowing much about Jamborees or OA or Venturing - why should they? It is going to be a few years before they ever see it. I don't see how having or not having that knowledge is going to make any difference in how they run their unit."

 

Why should a Cub Scout Leader know about these?

 

Well, first off, if that Cub Scout leader has gone thru New Leader Essentials, they should have been introduced to Venturing.

 

Also, if your local Lodge contacts you about helping out your Pack going camping, as part of the OA's role in this area, you will know what that's about. (yes, really, the OA is supposed to help in Cub Camping and Webelos transitions).

 

Also, if a local Venturing Crew contact you about helping our your Pack or a Venturer wants to come and do a presentation to met one of their requirements, you'll know what that's about.

 

NO scout leader should have blinders on and be oblivious to the rest of the scout program. That one of the reasons for NLE. And if they've been in scouting long enough, and read their Scouting magazine, etc, they should have heard of these things.

 

 

[BrentAllen]

All leaders, including Cub leaders, are required to have all training completed for their current position before they can attend WB. So they should have all been through NLE.

 

Now - tell me how knowing about Venturing, which some of these leaders won't see for 7 or 8 years, is going to help them run a den or pack? Yes, the OA helps our with Crossover ceremonies, but you don't have to know anything about the selection process or other details to request their help.

 

I know leaders who have been in Boy Scouting for many years, but don't have the first clue about Cub Scouts. Should they be prevented from attending WB because they aren't familiar with the Tiger program?

 

I think this might all be much ado about nothing. It's not like Cub leaders are beating down the doors to attend WB. It's hard enough to get them to attend NLE and Leader Specific! Only two from our Pack have ever attended WB - me and my ACM. My thoughts are that if you want an improved Cub program, encourage Cub leaders to attend WB.

 

 

[emb021]

"All leaders, including Cub leaders, are required to have all training completed for their current position before they can attend WB. So they should have all been through NLE."

 

Yes, they should have.

 

"Now - tell me how knowing about Venturing, which some of these leaders won't see for 7 or 8 years, is going to help them run a den or pack? Yes, the OA helps our with Crossover ceremonies, but you don't have to know anything about the selection process or other details to request their help."

 

You don't get what I'm saying. I don't expect them to be experts about this programs. But they should have HEARD of them. Their reaction shouldn't be "what's OA/Venturing? I've never heard of those programs?".

 

"I know leaders who have been in Boy Scouting for many years, but don't have the first clue about Cub Scouts. Should they be prevented from attending WB because they aren't familiar with the Tiger program?"

 

Did I say they should be prevented? No. I said they should have been involved in scouting a couple of years, and that during that time they should have been exposed (thru reading Scouting magazine, going to district/council events, etc) to what exists in scouting. But too many leaders seem to put on blinders to anything but their own program. I haven't been involved in Cub Scouts since I was a cub myself, but at least I am reasonably familiar with the program.

 

Again, depends on what you mean by 'familiar'. I would hope they have heard of Tiger Cubs and know its the younger program in Cub Scouts. It shouldn't be "what are Tigers?"

 

"I think this might all be much ado about nothing. It's not like Cub leaders are beating down the doors to attend WB. It's hard enough to get them to attend NLE and Leader Specific! Only two from our Pack have ever attended WB - me and my ACM. My thoughts are that if you want an improved Cub program, encourage Cub leaders to attend WB."

 

In my area, most WB courses mainly have Cub Scout and Boy Scout leaders, with a smattering of Venturing leaders. We don't have a problem with getting Cub leaders to come. Unfortunately, it seems like many of the Cub leaders are about to move over to Boy Scouts.

 

[Cigarsquid]

Greetings, all -- it's been a day or two since I've posted.

 

This past weekend our Troop held its annual Junior Leader Training -- now called Troop Leader Training, and during the Module 2 "Scoutmaster's Vision of Success", I had all sorts of great ideas on what would make the Troop successful. But after my SPL and I had discussed our vision, I asked the ASMs and CR if they had anything to add. Our CR (an Eagle and active in Scouting the past 40 years) immediatley piped in with "Fun"

 

What does that have to do with this thread, you ask? I'm glad you asked.

 

If a female SM can provide the Scout program and make it fun for boys, good on her. If she would prefer to take on one of the committee positions instead -- great. If she'd rather leave it up to the dads -- great.

 

I have one mom who has been to every outing -- including Klondike -- and boy can she cook! She has taught me how to use a dutch oven -- something 24 years in the Navy didn't teach me.

 

One of my ASM's is very knowledgeable in plants -- so I'm learning from him how to identify the local flora and fauna. Something I really don't need to know in the Navy.

 

Our DE is female -- and she's one heck of a Scouter, too!

 

There are several female SMs in this Council -- and from what I've seen, every one of them delivers the promise.

 

Do I have some moms who are a pain in the backside -- you betcha -- but I've got some dads who are just as bad. Do any of them participate in Committee or attend campouts? No -- but they've always got a comment about how things should be done.

 

My point is that if a woman in my Troop is willing to step up and take a leadership position, I'll be glad to have her.

 

Now lets go out and have some fun!

 

Tim

Troop 99

Albany, OR