Female Scout Leaders-Here we go again

[gwd-scouter]

Not wanting to hijack the thread on starting Scouting in 2006, and thinking I'd light to weigh in on some of the comments made about yellow blouses and cub leaders and women, I thought I'd start a new thread.

 

Specifically about women as Cub Leaders. Some folks on this and other forums have suggested that, aside from possibly Troop Commmittee, Cub Scouts is the only place for female leaders. Maybe that's true. For the little guys, women may have more patience and more enthusiasm to do the more "crafty" kind of requirements.

 

Enter Webelos. Now here's where we seem to have a breakdown. In our District at least, we see a huge drop between Webelos and Boy Scouts. For the most part, the biggest drop comes from the Webelos Dens that have female leaders. I'm not trying to make any cause and effect argument here, but I do have some ideas as to why this might be happening.

 

Webelos is where the boys should start to move away from Mommy and Daddy doing everything for them and start to learn a little bit of independence. Women can be effective leaders at this stage, but they do need to be comfortable outdoors. Most I've seen are not.

 

For instance, our troop was fortunate to receive four Webelos crossovers last Spring. With the exception of one scout whose father took him out hunting and fishing and hiking, the other three scouts were woefully unprepared for Boy Scouts. On their very first weekend campout with us, two of them declared that not only had they never been camping, they had never been away from home overnight without their Mom!

 

I know the Mom who was their Webelos Den Leader. A lovely woman who admits she wouldn't be caught dead sleeping on the ground and absolutely cannot understand why I have been involved in this for so long.

 

The Cubmaster for that Pack recently spoke to me about his new Webelos Den and the Den Leader and Asst. (both men). He said "at least this time, the boys will get outside and do things, and may be better prepared when they cross over to Boy Scouts."

 

You may surmise from this post that I have a problem with female leadership in Scouting. Or, since you are probably aware that I am that rare breed - a female Scoutmaster - then you may assume that I think women make the same quality leaders as men in Scouting.

 

On the contrary. I don't care what a leader's gender is, but I do have a problem with leaders in Scouting (at all levels) that are not equipped with, or are not willing to learn, the qualities it takes to be effective. Along with women, I have seen my share of male leaders in both Cubs and Boys that don't have a clue about the outdoors or how to deliver their particular branch of the program. Along with those Scoutmasters whom I've tried to emulate, I've seen those that make up rules about attendance, deadlines for merit badges, and cook and clean for the boys on campouts.

 

I can't speak to Venturing since I have little knowledge of that program.

 

So, I guess my point here is that while I will no longer directly respond to those that make blanket statements that women have no place being leaders in Boy Scouts or that things have been dumbed down for the "yellow blouses," I would ask that we all take the time to ensure our units have the best possible adult leaders it can and that the boys we serve receive the Scouting Program at its finest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

To the best of my knowledge we do not have a female Scoutmaster in our Council.

I don't think I know if there is a reason for this.

We do have several female ASM's. Some attended Wood Badge and them not being male didn't seem to ever come up.

I have to admit that I was worried when we started to see females join the Ship as youth members. So far they seem more than able to hold their own and seem more focused than the boys.

Still I really ought not use a generalization like that! If I'd said that the boys were more focused than the boys I be accused of being sexist.

We don't have a lot of groups represented as Scoutmasters in our Council: No black Scoutmasters, No Jewish Scoutmasters, No Latino Scoutmasters. We do help cover our lack of diversity by allowing some guy who talks funny play at being the Skipper of a Sea Scout Ship.

I think the hope is that if he messes up we can set him adrift and maybe he'll float home.

Eamonn.

[BrentAllen]

I'm sure this will be a shock to some on this page, but we have women Scouters serving as Wood Badge Course Directors in our council. Then again, that fact might play right into their stereotypes about both women Scouters and 21st Century WB.

[Gonzo1]

Just as there has always been women in the military, there have been women in scouting.

 

Brent,

I believe the North Florida Council had a female WB course director in '95, but I'm not sure. I'm sure there are others. I read a post where a woman was a WB SPL, c'mon!

 

Sorry GWD, it seems that some people are better suited for one thing or another. It's true, women may be more patient with the little cubs, men may be more suited to be SM's, I don't know you personally, you seem to make sense in these forums, I hope you're delivering the promise and da program. I didn't mean (in the other thread) to imply that women COULDN'T be scoutmasters, I think men may be better at it, but not the only person for the job. I don't mean to offend, I hope you understand.

 

I know some women who can run circles around men when it comes to some basic scout skills. I'm a man and I'm the one who does most of the sewing in my home, particularly on the machine. I also run the table saw.

 

Gonzo1

 

 

[red feather]

I may step on toes here. Hope not.

 

Having been in scouting for some years (Eagle 68) and no I have not been active since then, life, military, work and family took priority, the things that I have seen that excite the minds and imaginations of scouts are the things that are outdoors.

 

I have been active with scouts (cub and boy) for the last 17 years and am currently SM (forgot to duck) and the area that I live in expect the males to step up and deliver the scouting program at least on the front end . In that outing is scouting. (had to cancel Nov campout due to deer season,long/short story) I have had the pleasure of working with females that were gung ho for the outing and working with males with were huh with the outing and vise versa. Unforunatly the scouts repsonded most with the males who were competant with the outing skills and with the huh croud. (doesn't make it right but...), just what I have observed.

 

Got my WB beads in 95 and would really like to take the newer WB course to be able to evaluate it and decide for myself whether it is pertinent to what I observe in the scouts that I serve.

 

The breakdown that we see is that the Cubs advance into Webeloes and there is not normally a male involved to help get the Webeloes ready for Boy Scouts (the stongest Webeloe Dens that cross over have a active dad involvement). Not saying that is what is required but what we see. One thing we are doing is to do is try to provide a Den Chief to the Webeloe Den and if possible have an adult scouter assigned as well to help get them ready for scouting.

 

The problem (that I see) with the the transition from Cubs to Scouts two fold, having Webeloes ready for scouting and getting the parents to be secure and ready in what Boy Scouting can do for their sons.

 

In todays society it is hard for some parents to 'let go' of junior and send him off to the wilderness where wild things live. That is where the strong male or female leader comes into play. If the leaders, male or female, have done only the cub scout type of work then there is a disconnect. If the strong male or female leader shows outing skills then there is normally no disconnect. (at least till the weaker male or female have demonstrated skills sufficient to placate the parents)

 

I personally do not care whether the adult leader is male or female, white, black, purple, brown, red or pocadotted (sp?) if they have the skills to provide a program that allows the boys to run their own troop and that as an adult can enhance their expierence and the willingness to acquire those skills then yahoo!!!

 

sorry for the long post but what we do is important.

 

the soap box is broken and thanks for the campfire

 

yis

red feather

 

 

[scoutingagain]

Women can, should, and do participate in all aspects of adult leadership in Boy Scouts and I have no problem with that, as long as they are competent and I would say the same thing about male adult leaders.

 

It is good for boys to see women in leadership roles. Given the current ratio of women to men in today's colleges and universities it is not just possible, but highly probable that boys currently in scouting will have a female boss, manager, or have to deal with a female authority figure at some point in their career in just about any endevour they choose, with the possible exception of the NFL or MLB, although that may change as well when women become referees or umpires.

 

However, there is one thing a female adult leader can not be, and that is a positive male role model and all Boy Scout units should have several adult males that can fulfill that role in their adult leadership corps in my opinion.

 

SA

[BrentAllen]

Gonzo,

Atlanta Area Council had a woman CD this year, and will also have one next year. There may have been others I'm not aware of. In my WB course (summer, 2004) we had around 8 - 10 women as participants, and around 6 - 8 on staff as well.

 

I certainly agree that women cannot be male role models for the boys. However, think it is very eye-opening for boys with moms who don't camp to see women Scouters who do.

[Chippewa29]

As someone born in 1972 (the year Title IX was enacted), I've always felt it was weird for women not to have the same opportunities as men.

 

Of course, while growing up, I learned what were traditionally male and female roles in our society. Something I always noticed was that any time I encountered a woman that was in a traditionally male role, she tended to be more competent than a majority of the men I met in a similar position.

 

As part of this, when I started seeing women in SM and ASM positions in the early 90's, they tended to be some of the most competent and dedicated Scouters I had ever met. There are certain traits needed to be a successful Scout leader. These include a desire to spend time outdoors (usually associated with men), a desire to help young boys grow into strong, upstanding young men (both men and women), and a willingness to let go and let the Scouts fail if that will lead to a better learning experience (more associated with men).

 

The beef most males Scouters have with women being involved in Scouting in a contact role is they feel the moms are too emotional and won't let the kids grow up. I've seen this go both ways where the mom is ready to push the kid out the door so he can get more independent. However, dad goes on the campout and watches over junior the entire weekend, setting up his tent, washing his dishes, asking him every 15 minutes if he's warm enough, etc.

 

Something I always tell parents before they go on a campout is that once they get there, they are not a parent, but a Scout leader. If they are going to tell their own son to put on his hat, then they need to be willing to say that to all the Scouts.

 

My attitude toward female leaders is the same as toward male leaders: they have to be willing to act as a Scout leader (not a parent) if they are going to camp with the Scouts.

[emb021]

"I can't speak to Venturing since I have little knowledge of that program."

 

Keep in mind that 1) Venturing is a co-ed program and 2) it for 14-21 youth.

 

These are older kids that 10yo Webelos, or 11-13yo Boy Scouts needing male role models.

 

While not every Venturing crew is an outdoor crew, many who are have female advisors who are great outdoorwomen.

 

 

 

[Jeffrey H]

I have nothing against female leaders. The previous posts share my sentiment.

 

However, we have a Mom who transferred her son to our Pack from another Pack. The reason? She wants her son to have positive male role models because his father died two years ago and she wants him to be exposed to male leadership. She chose our Pack because 90% of our leadership are Men including the Cubmaster and Den Leaders.

 

His former Pack was all Women including his DL and CM. They are good leaders, but she claimed her son needed to be around men he could look up to. (Her words, not mine).

 

[gwd-scouter]

Emb - I do know that about Venturing. Actually, I've been asked a couple of times if I would be willing to be an advisor to a young Crew in our District. The only Crew that is co-ed. Some-day I think I'd like to do that, but for now I am busy with my SM duties.

 

Our troop is fortunate to have two very strong male ASMs - my husband and another gentleman who just stepped up last summer. So, even with a female SM, our boys are able to have the positive male role model experience and association. We had another Dad join us on our camporee last weekend. He doesn't know anything about Boy Scouting, but he said he was willing to learn and join in the fun. From the comments I've heard from the Scouts after he spent the weekend with us, they seem to like him a lot and enjoyed showing him the things they could do.

 

It really is too bad that more of our Dads won't help out. With the exception of our Chairman, our Committee is made up entirely of women.

 

Hey Gonzo, thanks for the PM. Forgot to mention in my reply - I can run a table saw, too! Heh heh.

 

 

[Kudu]

Let me cut & paste a summary of my comments from the other thread so that people can reply here instead:

 

I believe that:

 

1) The outdoor nature of BSA Wood Badge has been neutered to accommodate the leaders of a Cub Scout program from which the BSA has likewise removed most of the outdoor requirements, and for which transparent yellow blouses and scissors & paste are perfectly good symbols.

 

Removing many of the outdoor advancement requirements to facilitate hothouse Eagles who have never been backpacking or on an overnight canoe trip was probably done to maintain member and adult volunteer numbers at a level necessary to support BSA professional salaries and retirement benefits.

 

Baden-Powell believed that Scouting should be all-volunteer and if he started such an alternative Scouting program in 2006 he would not take the same Parlour Scouting approach.

 

2) Women (and men) who are not the outdoors type should not be Scouters or the trainers of Scouters.

 

3) My Assistant Scoutmaster, the only female to have ever completed my Council's three part advanced Okpik course, is more the outdoors type than the overwhelming majority of northern men who never attend (or merely complete) the basic prerequisite Cold Weather Training course, and for whom the BSA's equally ill-conceived dress designer Oscar de la Renta uniform pants are the perfect symbol :-)

 

4) The only reason that my views about women in Scouting are controversial is that the BSA discriminates against girls. Some post-feminist writers such as Michael Gurian (featured in Scouter.Com's Scouter Magazine) write that what 21st century boys need most is an environment in which boys can learn how to be men from men.

 

One possible alternative to the BSA's policies of discrimination is that of the Baden-Powell Scout Association (BPSA-USA) in which every sponsoring organization sets up two separate Troops: A Troop for boys run by men, and a Troop for girls run by women. As to what extent the two Troops (and their adult leadership) are integrated depends on the goals and human resources of each individual sponsoring organization.

 

Kudu

 

 

[Gonzo1]

Brent,

I agree. There are women scouters who can run circles around some men. I also know male scoutmasters with beads who ain't got a clue.

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

I am married to a most remarkable person. She can run circles around anyone in the outdoors. She can also cut and paste, change the oil, build, cut grass, haul wood, give demonstrations on all kinds of little animals, bugs and birds. We have waded and canoed creeks and rivers, hiked trails (once while she was PG with son number 1) and she is a female to boot. She is presently staying home to raise our two boys. I keep them nights while she works her job. When they get to be Cub Scouts, they are in for a program that is already well under way. If other females are holding back in today's world so they won't smear their make-up, then they deserve to be angry about being left out. Scouting's door and life is open to any that don't mind being in the great outdoors. fb

[OldGreyEagle]

Oddly enough I have a small collections of recordings of B-P's speeches. I have his 80th birthday address and it's wonderful, it really gives you a glimpse of the man who had a wonderful sense of humor, that sense of humor is again illustrated in his speech titled "Address to the Public" where he describes the Boy Scout movement as "The movement primarily is a brotherhood of service of boys and men. Its school of character of citizenship, of personal efficiency for the good of the community." Then he immediately follows up with this rejoinder "This sounds high-falootin. For what is as we know it, a band of bare-kneed rascals, with cowboy hats and staves in their hands" but again his sense of humor comes through. In his speech "Address to Scoutmasters and Commissioners" he has the following statement "...We want more young men and even young women to come forward as Scoutmasters. There is work for all, and good work...." So apparently the founder didnt buy into the fact you had to be testosterone laden behemoth of a man to be a scoutmaster, he wanted all who could do the work of which they were capable and he appreciated it all as necessary and not that some was of higer value than others. B-P was quite a remarkable fellow, we would do well to strive to be like him.