If BP had started scouting in 2006, what would it look like?

[OldGreyEagle]

Sorry if you felt threatened by a person who has no idea who you are or where you are, but if I accept perception is reality then perhaps the expirired Kudu picture was over the top, but not so over the top that you recopied it yourself.

 

I learned a long time ago that moderating this Forum was not for the faint of heart, nor would applying my own standards of behavior be correct as my efforts would be seen as censoring. I try to let conversations go on as long as they seem productive to the participants. I can tell you everytime a thread is closed, the outpouring of rage over the abridgement of a first amendment right is incredible so it is done as little as possible on my part. I have ascribed to pretty much a policy of you reap what you sow. If a person comes on all full of vim and vigor and is rather rough in opinion and doesnt hesitate to knock scouting icons and mocks BSA and generally all forms of establsihed authority, that is his/her right. But when people answer those posts with as much passion defending the status quo and answer rough language with the same, I dont understand why the original person feel attacked when the same type of language they used is used on them.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[BrentAllen]

OGE,

I agree with your practice on moderating forums. I moderate one on Highpower in Georgia http://forums.delphiforums.com/gahighpower/start and I get asked every now and then to delete a thread or post by someone who doesn't agree with it. Very rarely do I comply, as I feel once you start down that road, there is no turning back. I would rather let everyone see the posts, see who they are from, and make up their own mind about the poster. If you delete or edit, everyone still wants to know what was so offensive that it had to be removed! So I believe in the theory of giving people enough rope to hang themselves. Some may feel that way about me, but I always live by one rule regarding internet postings - I only post what I would say to someone face to face.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

[Kudu]

BrentAllen writes:

 

To borrow a line from you...

 

"Your Politically Correct righteous indignation is just too funny for words :-/"

 

That was my concise description of your previous personal attack against me:

 

"Wow! That is about the most arrogant, condescending, chauvinistic remark I have seen on this site"

 

Funny - that is how I felt about your derogatory, sexist comment about "yellow blouses." Have you seen any of them go crying to the moderators?

 

I am talking about a class of people: scissors & paste women in an indoor Cub Scout program for whom outdoor Boy Scout training is being dumbed down to accommodate.

 

The indoor transparent yellow blouses represent a Cub Scout program from which Baden-Powell's outdoor emphasis has been gutted by the BSA in much the same way that the dress designer Oscar de la Renta indoor Boy Scout Uniform represents a Boy Scout program from which Baden-Powell's rugged outdoor elements (such as an Expedition at every stage of advancement) has been gutted by the BSA.

 

I believe that leaders of such an indoor Cub Scout program should be excluded from outdoor Boy Scout training in the same way that you believe that atheists and homosexuals (and presumably girls) should be excluded from the BSA. All such abstract issues are fair game.

 

The difference is that when you single out individuals and call them arrogant, condescending, chauvinistic, pompous, and egotistical, the level of the discussion drops to what we have here now.

 

Scouter.Com moderators should understand this distinction.

 

Kudu

[OldGreyEagle]

Maybe I should, but I don't, can't speak for the others. I invite a little comparison shopping, here are other scouting forums:

 

http://usscouts.org/cgi-bin/discuss/discus.cgi

http://www.meritbadge.net/phpbb/

http://www.scoutingforums.org/

 

 

I invite Kudu to post his opinions of the BSA and Wood Badge and the role of women in scouting in these forums and we will see how he is treated by those moderators.

[Kudu]

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

I invite Kudu to post his opinions of the BSA and Wood Badge and the role of women in scouting in these forums and we will see how he is treated by those moderators.

 

OK OGE, I accept your challenge but I double dog dare you to first call someone in those forums arrogant, condescending, chauvinistic, pompous, and egotistical.

 

I stand by what I actually said:

 

1) The outdoor nature of BSA Wood Badge has been neutered to accommodate the leaders of a Cub Scout program in which the BSA has likewise removed most of the outdoor requirements, and for which transparent yellow blouses and scissors & paste are perfectly good symbols. Please note that I'm not saying that the dumbing down of the BSA outdoor Cub Scout and Boy Scout requirements is necessarily a bad thing :-) It was probably necessary to maintain member and adult volunteer numbers at a level necessary to support BSA professional salaries and retirement benefits. What I said was that if Baden-Powell started an all-volunteer Scouting program in 2006 he would not take the same Parlour Scouting approach.

 

2) Women (and men) who are not the outdoors type should not be Scouters or the trainers of Scouters.

 

3) My Assistant Scoutmaster, the only female to have ever completed my Council's three part advanced Okpik course, is more the outdoors type than the overwhelming majority of men who never attend or only complete the basic prerequisite Cold Weather Training course, and for whom the BSA's equally ill-conceived dress designer uniform pants are the perfect symbol :-)

 

4) The only reason that my views are controversial is that the BSA discriminates against girls. Some post-feminist writers such as Michael Gurian (featured in Scouter.Com's Scouter Magazine) write that what 21st century boys need most is an environment in which boys can learn how to be men from men. One possible alternative to the BSA's policies of discrimination is that of the Baden-Powell Scout Association (BPSA-USA) in which every sponsoring organization sets up two separate Troops: A Troop for boys run by men, and a Troop for girls run by women. As to what extent the two Troops (and their adult leadership) are integrated depends on the goals and human resources of each individual sponsoring organization.

 

Kudu

 

 

[evmori]

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

I invite Kudu to post his opinions of the BSA and Wood Badge and the role of women in scouting in these forums and we will see how he is treated by those moderators.

 

That's sorta like granting a criminal immunity from prosecution!

 

I gotta agree that the training should fit the audience. Cub trainers should be training Cub leaders & Boy Scout trainers should be training Boy Scout leaders. And if the trainer has never actually done what they are training in, they should before they tell others how to do it.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

[Eamonn]

All this going on and I missed it!!

 

I was driving to the post office yesterday and I drove past one of the big houses we have in town.

Our small town is known for it's Edwardian buildings and architecture.

The house looked kinda sad. At some stage some twit had painted all the brick work, it was peeling and coming away, the grass needed mowed and the weeds were growing around up around the building.

A sign hung outside the building stating it was the home of the Scottdale Historical Society.

The house had been owned by an early rich family that is somehow connected to Her Who Must Be Obeyed.

About 15 years ago a group from the local chamber of commerce had bought the building. They outbid me!! I was going to turn it into apartments. At that time I was seen as the bad guy. I had no intention of preserving the building, no real interest of the history, it was just an investment to me. In fact someone called me a land grabbing Limey!!

The building requires a lot of maintenance and I was ready to spend a fair amount of cash to change it into six apartments.

When I didn't get it I wasn't upset, I moved on to the next project.

At first the people involved in the house were so very busy they found the money to buy period furniture and cleaned the house up.

Then the roof which is slate needed replaced and the heating system needed to be replaced, they didn't have the funds. Soon interest faded and the house fell into bad repair.

The house which for a couple of Christmases was decorated and opened wasn't used for anything.

The group that were behind buying it stared to argue and had a big falling out.

Many of these people used to come into the bar.

The ladies that decorated at Christmas were upset, many had went and bought or made the decorations themselves.

The guy who had sanded the floors was mad when the roof leaked and ruined the floor and all of his hard work.

As I drove past I thought about what had gone wrong.

I think everyone had good intentions.

Maybe they just went about it wrong.

There was /is a need for different groups with different skills to make a project like that work. People who have practical skills and people who can take on the administration, fund raising and so on.

As it is now no one is happy and the house is falling apart.

I believe that Scouting is a game with a purpose. We need all the different groups to work together to make it work.

I look at the new WB Course as the place where we can bring all the groups together and show them how they can work together.

The game part is very important, if we don't have the game and people who can pass on the skills to the youth the game dies and it's not fun any more. We also need the people to support those who are working with the youth, the more time they spend not working with the youth the less chance they have of making it fun.

When we start fighting and trying to make out that one group is more important than the other we are shooting ourselves in the foot.

I feel sure that Kudu does a wonderful job with the Scouts he serves. I think maybe if we were able to give him the funds and the support he needs that there is a good chance he might be able to do a better job.

But for that to work we need to have a clear idea of what we want to do and where we are going.

Of course for that to happen we all at times have to be willing to compromise.

Eamonn.

[Gonzo1]

Kudu,

You said: Women (and men) who are not the outdoors type should not be Scouters or the trainers of Scouters.

I disagree. What about women who are great administrators? couldn't they be Unit Commissioners? How about District Committee?

 

I'm not saying they should be, but they could be.

 

Gonzo

 

 

 

[Gonzo1]

Eamonn,

Sorry to hear about the real estate deal gone bad.

 

However, I must disagree, a little. I feel almost bad disagreeing with a guy who took his woodbadge training at the Happy Land.

 

I agree that scouting is a game with a purpose. However, trying to teach the patrol method to den leaders may not make sense, trying to have ALL the groups work TOGETHER may not make sense either. Tiger cubs can't do camp-o-rees, Venturers may not want to do crafts. Wolves can't do an actual regatta.

 

I agree, the game part is very important and that we need people who can pass on the skills. I think trying to do Wood Badge to first or second year Cub leaders is rediculous. I know a scoutmaster who has beads, but no clue. Maybe open it up to adult Boy Scout leaders in their 3rd year or service instead the old 10 year requirement.

 

Perhaps there should be more emphasis on advanced SKILLS training, and less management. Maybe the skills training could be offered more frequently so more could attend. May offer an camp-o-ree for adults and have scouts judge.

 

Let's emphasize the program specific training with a little flexibility. If a Tiger den leader is going to be a wolf or bear den leader, encourage that person to attend BALOO. If a webelos den leader feels he or she will move up to Boy Scouts, encourage them to attend boy scout leader outdoor skills training and so on.

 

They did have Cub Leader Wood Badge, right?

I think Wood Badge should be the pinnacle of Scout Leader training, something a leader should look forward to, not something they get in the firt year or two.

 

I don't think that any group or program is better than any other. They are just different, aimed at different people.

 

Maybe Venturers and Boy Scouts could do camp-o-rees. Maybe Roundtables should be all inclusive and then have breakout sessions for each program.

 

All the best, (no offense intended).

 

Gonzo

 

 

[Kudu]

 

Gonzo writes:

 

You said: "Women (and men) who are not the outdoors type should not be Scouters or the trainers of Scouters."

 

I disagree. What about women who are great administrators? Couldn't they be Unit Commissioners? How about District Committee?

 

Gonzo, my female Assistant Scoutmaster is a Unit Commissioner and one of my Committee Members is the District Commissioner. My impression is that because they are the outdoor type they have a better vision of how a Troop should work and thus make better Commissioners, but since I have no experience with being a Unit Commissioner or a District Committee member, I limited my comment to Scouters and the trainers of Scouters.

 

I do have a great horror story about a non-outdoor type female "administrator" (a Charter Representative) that I hope to contribute to your "Female Scout Leaders-Here we Go Again" thread.

 

In the meantime I have cut & pasted a summary of my comments on the subject of women in Scouting there so that this thread can get back to Baden-Powell.

 

Kudu

 

 

[emb021]

"I think trying to do Wood Badge to first or second year Cub leaders is rediculous. I know a scoutmaster who has beads, but no clue. Maybe open it up to adult Boy Scout leaders in their 3rd year or service instead the old 10 year requirement."

 

I have to agree. I don't know if there was a 10 year requirement, but in the old days you had to have quite a bit of experience before you can go. I think the BSA pushes people into WB too soon. My feeling is that a scouters should be going to WB during their second year. That way they have both basic training under their belt AND experience as a scout leader.

 

"Perhaps there should be more emphasis on advanced SKILLS training, and less management. Maybe the skills training could be offered more frequently so more could attend. May offer an camp-o-ree for adults and have scouts judge."

 

But scouters need the leadership/management training. If not in WB, where? As to skills, different skills are needed for different programs. Since WB is now for all programs, skills had to move elsewhere, such as Powder Horn, IOLS, etc.

 

"They did have Cub Leader Wood Badge, right? "

 

No. No such course existed.

 

What they did have was Cub Scout Trainer Wood Badge. It was for those who would go back to their councils and train Cub Scout leaders. But Cub Scout leaders were denied WB. Also, Explorer Leaders were denied it as well. Out west they developed Explorer Leader Institute. Sea Scout leaders created Sea Badge for the same reasons.

 

The problem is that by taking Boy Scout Leader WB, Cub Scout Trainer WB, ELI, Varsity Scout WB and merge them into a single '21st Century WB' is that by having a single WB for all programs is that you lose a lot of the program-specific information. This is one of the reasons why Sea Badge continues to exist and is so important to Sea Scouts. And why Powder Horn has become such an important program to promote/training Venturing leaders.

 

Personally I've always felt they should have created a 'core WB' program, then deliver it in program specific formats for Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Venturing leaders. This way all leaders can go to WB and not be denied, plus they can get both leadership and skills needed for their program.

 

 

 

[Gonzo1]

Here'a an idea:

Have WB the way it used to be. There are 8 patrols in WB, right? get some adult leaders from Venturing, Sea Scouts who may also want to attend WB. Have the Course Director (we called him Scoutmaster) and arbitrarily assign the non-boy scout folks to a separate patrol, like Venturers in Owl, Sea Scouts in Bear and when basic scout skills are covered, everyone is on the same page. When program specific training happens at the patrol site, it's geared for that program.

 

Folks, what do you think? It's just a thought.

 

[Jeffrey H]

The BSA is what it is today because it is not exclusively an outdoor program.  It is a program that teaches citizenship, community service, character development, resourcefulness, and physical fitness.  Outdoor skills are the traditional methods to teach those values and its proven well for almost a century.  Measuring the worth of a boy goes way beyond his ability to tie a double half-hitch or go on a 20-mile hike.  I think its wonderful that the BSA offers alternative requirements for Scouts with physical disabilities (i.e., wheelchair bound) to attain the rank of Eagle.  Why do they do this?  Because they recognize that every boy is of extreme worth and should be recognized for his personal accomplishments.

 

I love the outdoors, camping, hiking, and scout craft, and I want these to always be emphasized in the scouting program.  However, if these were the only things that were offered, I would not be a part of it. 

 

I think Baden-Powell would agree.  Ive read enough of his writings and quotes to understand that he highly valued a boys character development.  If not, why in the world would he have developed the Scout Law and Oath?  If BP started it all today, there would still be a great emphasis on character development. 

 

[Kudu]

Jeffrey H writes:

 

Measuring the worth of a boy goes way beyond his ability to tie a double half-hitch or go on a 20-mile hike.

 

Those of us who advocate Traditional Scouting do not measure the worth of a boy on his ability to go on a 20-mile hike, but (in a discussion of what a Scouting program started by Baden-Powell looks like) his ability to go on a 20-mile hike most certainly is a valid measure of his mastery of Scoutcraft and therefore a valid measure of the worth of the Scoutcraft program in which he is involved.

 

I think its wonderful that the BSA offers alternative requirements for Scouts with physical disabilities (i.e., wheelchair bound) to attain the rank of Eagle. Why do they do this? Because they recognize that every boy is of extreme worth and should be recognized for his personal accomplishments.

 

So because every boy is of "extreme worth" he must be recognized as an Eagle Scout for his personal accomplishments, with the requirements adjusted according to his abilities?

 

One of the key concepts that Baden-Powell "borrowed" from Ernest Seton's Birch Bark Indians is that Scoutcraft Awards (mistakenly called "ranks" in the BSA) are based on meeting standards rather than on competition.

 

I don't see why everybody has to be an Eagle Scout (at the expense of rugged Scoutcraft standards) any more than why everybody has to be a leader (at the expense of the Patrol Method and outdoor skills). If I understand the logic correctly:

 

1) The Outdoor Method (Scoutcraft) is only one of the Methods of Scouting.

2) The BSA offers alternative requirements for Scouts with physical disabilities.

3) Nobody would dare to suggest that the "worth" or "character" of a disabled Eagle Scout is any less than an "abled" Eagle Scouts.

4) Therefore Scoutcraft standards (such as Baden-Powell's required 15, 20, and 50 mile Expeditions) don't really matter because the "worth" of every boy is the same.

 

I think Baden-Powell would agree. Ive read enough of his writings and quotes to understand that he highly valued a boys character development. If not, why in the world would he have developed the Scout Law and Oath?

 

And just where in his writings and quotes does he reveal that Scoutcraft standards must be lowered for the sake of character development or because of the Scout Law and Oath? :-)

 

If BP started it all today, there would still be a great emphasis on character development.

 

If Baden-Powell started a Scouting Movement in 2006, he would not dumb down his outdoor advancement requirements in the name of character development. Nor would he dumb down Wood Badge, removing the outdoor skills in the name of leadership development. Nor would he force the most gifted leader in a Patrol to step aside because everybody else needs to be a leader regardless of their abilities. Nor would he give up the Patrol System at summer camp so that everyone can eat at a central dining hall in the name of efficient Merit Badge factories.

 

In the former British Empire, the achievement standards of Baden-Powell's program were maintained until more than a quarter century after his death. In the 1960s it was decided in most WOSM associations that his program had to be watered down so as to maintain a market share of the youth culture that was perceived as uninterested in either the challenging outdoor aspects of Scouting or the values that meeting these challenges represented.

 

If Baden-Powell started a Scouting Movement in 2006, these WOSM Scouting associations would already be in place. Perhaps he might address the niche market that takes seriously the task that Congress laid out for the BSA in Section 3 of the BSA's National Charter which says that one of the purposes of the corporation shall be to train boys in "Scoutcraft...using the methods that are now [June 15, 1916] in common use by Boy Scouts"

 

Kudu

[Jeffrey H]

Kudu,

 

I never said Baden-Powell would water down outdoor advancement at the expense of character development. We will agree to disagree on the subject of alternative requirements for Scouts with physical diabilities. I never said that everyone is to be an Eagle Scout nor should they be.

 

The BSA obviously makes you very upset. Have you considered starting a Baden-Powell Scout Troop? I'm sure you have. I don't see how you can stand being a part of the BSA since you have such a jaundiced and negative opinion on everything the BSA does or attempts to do.

 

Good Day,

Jeff