School won't hand out flyers

[scoutldr]

Our DE has tried for years to get into our local Elem school to hand out the latest recruiting incentives to the boys during "boy talks". The principal that I mentioned above answers this way: "Unless you're going to bring something for the girls, too, the answer is no." Other schools in the district are wide open, and another principal served as our District Chairman. In this school system, the Principal is the lord and master of the building. Appealing to the Super does no good.

 

How do the Girl Scouts handle recruiting? Every morning as I get ready for work, I hear a commercial on the radio for Girl Scouting..."Where Girls Grow Strong". Where are the BSA public service announcements (or paid commercials)?

 

I recently saw a Food Network commercial for the Iron Chef show, featuring a Boy Scout troop doing their own Iron Chef competition. It was great, but I only saw it once.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Public schools have been our friends.

They have housed us, kept us warm

and out of the elements for years.

Now when they face litigation from without

I dont agree with bringing it to them from within.

They dont owe us, we owe them.

Trampling on our rights?

I am not ready to fight my friends.

They are following todays law.

so it is time for us to back off

and stand with those that

knew us when. FB

 

[nldscout]

FB, BEAV

I am willing to contribute a to a fund to get you two singing lessons. Anyone know where to send the money?

[Fuzzy Bear]

If only the best songbirds sang,the forest would be a very quiet place. AU

[Narraticong]

Once again, Beavah is right on target. If your town is like mine, my taxes pay for the buldings and the salaries. Therefore, I own the place. This means I am the boss. The taxpayers are the ones who ultimately must set policies. If you want Scouts in the schools, let your schoolboard know. And take your voter registration card with you as a visual aid. Don't go alone. Take some other parents with voter registration cards. And bring some boys in First Class uniforms. Ask the schoolboard to give you one good reason why an organization with a moral compass like the Boys Scouts is denied access.

 

We need to take ownership of what is ours instead of allowing others to make decisions for us. Step up to the plate and take a swing. If you believe in the Scout Oath and Law, it is your responsibility to act.

 

Our country is a moral disaster because of the "silent majority". Wake up and make a difference for our children. Those who try to ban Scouts because of the Duty to God issue would in reality love to ban Scouts just because we stand for morality in general. Duty to God is just a point they have been able to make headway with.

 

What a rant! Never waken a sleeping mosquito!

[Fuzzy Bear]

Verse 4

(*start with acoustic guitar)

Awakened Mosquito,

The School system

is not responding to

local requests to close

their doors

to Scouting.

They were responding to the

results of federal court cases.

(*Tom-Tom drums and banjos come in here)

You may want to slip your

library card back into your wallet

and while you are at it,

reach in and grab a big handful

of cash

for lawyers. (*crash cymbals here)

It is now going to take more than

shouting at people and confronting them

with voter registration cards to

return.

(*build slow crescendo uptake, all instruments)

So, get behind your unit and push

for the best darn program in town! FB

 

[CalicoPenn]

Before anyone contacts the ACLU, or the Office of Civil Rights of the US Department of Education, or rushes into their school board's meeting carrying voter registration cards, demanding that the school follow the law (the equal access act), and embarrassing yourself and the Scouts, perhaps a basic understanding of the law is in order. We all seem to have a good idea of just what equal access is and means - that's not the problem.

 

What isn't widely known (I admit to discovering this myself as I was trying to find out if there are exemptions for PTA/PTO programs that benefit the school, or other government agencies, like park districts, in handing out flyers) is that the equal access act applys ONLY to public SECONDARY schools that receive federal financial assistance. Put another way, it does NOT apply to Elementary or Mddle Schools (unless a state defines middle schooling as secondary education). In even simpler terms, the law applys to High Schools only!

 

It doesn't apply to elementary schools, where Cub Scout recruiting is taking place. They can give access to all, none, or any combination they choose. If you want to go to the school board and demand/request (I would hope in the spirit of Scouting it be a request) that Cub Scout recruiting be allowed - then have at it - just don't try to claim they have to because it's the law.

 

Finally, if I may be so bold as to give my interpretation of a certain Bear's song, it's "If there is a problem with recruitment in your pack, stop looking to outside influences and look within - make sure your house is in order and you are offering the best darn Cub Scout program there is, one that gets the Cubs that are already in your pack excited enough to invite their friends"

 

CalicoPenn

(Still learning something new all the time)

[packsaddle]

As I read the original post, I saw mention of flyers for "soccer, fall baseball, Spanish lessons, science camp, and numerous P.T.O./PTA letters", not from other private clubs. The announcements for "soccer, fall baseball, Spanish lessons, science camp, and numerous P.T.O./PTA letters" are school-related activities. BSA is not part of any school curriculum of which I am aware.

 

If the policy limits access by outside groups by refusing to send flyers, and if this is applied fairly to all outside groups, I see no legal recourse. If this is important enough to push it politically then by all means, exercise your voting power. However I, as a taxpayer, would not want to support the time and materials to advertise, for example, a recruiting effort by the local garden club, mosque, church (you name the flavor), temple, synagogue, or for that matter the Aryan Nation or the KKK. I, as a taxpayer, demand that every penny of my taxes for public education be expended on public education, not wasted in support of private clubs that ought to be capable of supporting themselves.

 

Sorry, BSA has chosen the private club path and for that I agree with Fuzzy. Build a good program and let that speak for itself. That approach is working just fine for this unit and we haven't had a school recruiting drive in years. We are private clubs competing for membership with other activities. Or...daring to touch a nerve here...is it possible that a poorly-run program might 'blame' a school policy such as this instead of addressing their own failings?

 

[nldscout]

Calico,

I am afraid you have errored in your interpretation of the EQUAL ACCESS TO PUBLIC SCHOOL FACILITIES act.

 

This is the exact wording of the act.

 

 

 

SEC. 9525. EQUAL ACCESS TO PUBLIC SCHOOL FACILITIES.

 

(a) SHORT TITLE- This section may be cited as the Boy Scouts of America Equal Access Act'.

 

(b) IN GENERAL-

 

(1) EQUAL ACCESS- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, no public elementary school, public secondary school, local educational agency, or State educational agency that has a designated open forum or a limited public forum and that receives funds made available through the Department shall deny equal access or a fair opportunity to meet to, or discriminate against, any group officially affiliated with the Boy Scouts of America, or any other youth group listed in title 36 of the United States Code (as a patriotic society), that wishes to conduct a meeting within that designated open forum or limited public forum, including denying such access or opportunity or discriminating for reasons based on the membership or leadership criteria or oath of allegiance to God and country of the Boy Scouts of America or of the youth group listed in title 36 of the United States Code.

 

So it does apply to Elementary schools.

 

 

[Beavah]

Thanks nld.

 

BTW, I neglected to mention that the Department of Education Office of Civil Rights has an on-line complaint form available at http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/complaintintro.html. The goal is to make discrimination reporting of all kinds, including against the Boy Scouts, facile. The more detail and specifics you provide, the better (ex. what other groups meet at school, distribute fliers, dates, times, emails/letters, conversations, etc.).

 

Yah, Calico and packsaddle, much as we might decry the modern tendency toward litigiousness, public schools are a creature of public law. So let's review da statements, eh?

 

1) Grabbing a handful of cash for lawyers: FALSE. A complaint to the Office of Civil Rights will result in an investigation and an "attempt to secure compliance." It will not trigger litigation or any particular loss of funds to the school district unless the district chooses to be belligerent. In which case, they deserve what they get.

 

2) Applies only to secondary schools: FALSE. The equal access act applies to any K-12 school or agency that receives money under any federal program administered by the U.S. Department of Education. There are a few, isolated school districts in the nation that refuse all federal $ (typically because they are small districts with something like a nuclear power plant in their back yard for tax revenue). I bet not one person readin' these forums lives in such a district.

 

3) PTO's are school organizations: usually FALSE. Almost everywhere PTA/PTO organizations are separately incorporated and not under the direction/control of the school board. They therefore have the same legal status as the Boy Scouts. If your school allows access to a PTA/PTO organization (for fliers, announcements, meeting space, etc.) it must allow access to the Boy Scouts. It is very difficult for a school to maintain a "closed forum" with clean hands at the elementary level. I'd venture to say "impossible" at the secondary level. Where it is attempted, it usually is abandoned within a year, or the next time a millage or bond issue comes before the voters, eh?

 

4) Out-of-season sports (fall baseball) are school-sponsored activities: FALSE. Out-of-season sports practice is not allowed as a school activity under most state athletic assn. rules.

 

5) Other things (Spanish lessons, science camp) are school-sponsored activities: MAYBE. Is it under the direction of the school board (i.e. school board hires and fires the staff / supervises the volunteers)? Most public schools are not allowed to charge for academic work that's part of their core curriculm (ex. Spanish lessons).

 

Simply put, it is very difficult for a school district to legally deny access, backpack mail flyers, or other recruiting to a scouting unit. If you find it happenin', do your duty to your country and report it the way you would report any other crime. We all took an Oath, eh?

 

[scoutldr]

One of the objections in the school that I am associated with has been the use of school staff time. The Prinicpal asserts that it is not the job of school staff to handle flyers (including counting, collating, distributing, etc), nor is it proper to divert instructional time for the purpose of a "boys only" assembly for the DE to give his pitch. In the past (pre-SOL days), these were common practices.

[packsaddle]

Beavah, I am not certain how the wording "equal access" will be interpreted when the courts get involved, but I read 'school-related' in this issue, not 'school-sponsored'. I can easily understand the possibility that such things as sports, science camp, and PTA being school-related. Perhaps I'm wrong and these things have nothing whatsoever to do with public education. If not, I stand corrected.

 

However, IF the soccer club is a private club, IF fall baseball isn't allowed as you say and is a private activity, IF Spanish lessons are not being offered as supplementary lessons by the Spanish teacher but rather by some private entrepreneur, IF science camp is not sponsored by the school district but rather by a business or church (or some other private organization), and IF numerous P.T.O./PTA letters are, as you say, private communications by a parents club...THEN I agree with you and none of them should not be allowed. Happy?

 

I stick with Fuzzy on this, using legal means to force something on an unwilling participant will not be as well-received by either the schools or the public as would be a great program that everyone wants to join because they've heard about it in glowing terms.

As I said before, I don't know how the wording of the new law will be interpreted. But if it means that ALL of the above activities, if private, along with BSA recruiting flyers will be shoved down the throat of the schools and the kids' backpacks, I see tax dollars wasted and few people happy about it. And if BSA is the recognized reason for that result, it won't exactly cover BSA with glory. BSA may win that battle, but not much more.

 

[packsaddle]

It seems that this discussion is headed towards a 'logjam' which has little chance of resolution and which does not actually address the problem. Everyone is lining up across some legal/political/ideological void that has little to do with the actual problem.

 

The problem is that a unit needs to recruit more boys.

The problem is NOT that some public school won't let them advertise.

The problem is that a unit needs to recruit more boys.

 

I confronted a very similar situation years ago. I inherited a CS pack that was nearly dead. We had about 10 boys and three adults...I was both DL and CM.

The problem was not the program. Our program was nearly identical to the program of the other CS pack that had over 50 boys and was thriving. The problem was recruiting. And the reason was preferential treatment by the schools and the DE...for the other pack. No one knew we existed, it seemed. The schools sent flyers for the other pack but not ours because parents from the other pack worked in the schools. The DE preferentially sent boys to the other pack because his sons were in that pack. One roundup was such a sham that literally the entire room of families stood and walked over to the other pack to sign up. It had been a done deal long before we gave our presentation.

My letters to our local council went unanswered.

At this point in the process, many respondents to this thread would cite the new law and complain loudly, "Not Fair!". And it wasn't fair. But you know what?...it was just tough luck for us. Time to get on with business.

 

Instead of quitting or taking legal action or whining all over the place, we took responsibility ourselves. I pre-empted the normal roundup by posting in newspapers, in church newsletters, on radio announcements, etc., and all this just BEFORE the start of school and the normal roundup. When the DE complained I just said, 'sorry, too late'. A stiff note from the council went, well...., unanswered - what a bunch of percentage-parasite slime.

 

Of course I was angry...who wouldn't be? But that was little help to those little guys with those wonderful smiles. So I suppressed my anger and focused on the problem.

 

When people found out about us, the pack came back and is now very strong. The unit (including the troop) is now stronger than any of the other units (a new one was formed recently as well) and we NEVER rely on schools or roundups for our recruiting or our strength.

So based on my personal experience...

STOP WHINING! Stop whining about what someone else is NOT doing for you. Get off your fat (rarely, bony) butts and DO IT FOR YOURSELVES!

Stop trying to blame others for failing to solve a problem that is YOUR responsibility...and that YOU can address if you will just stand up on your hind legs!

If 10 boys and three adults can do it, so can you.

[CalicoPenn]

NLD - Mea Culpa - with an explanation:

 

I was referring to the fairly well known Equal Access Act - the Equal Access Act applies only to Secondary Schools.

 

After reading your response, a little more digging brought me to the lesser known Equal Access to Public School Facilities for the Boy Scouts of America and Other Designated Youth Groups Act (what a mouthful).

 

This Act, as you point out, does indeed apply to elementary schools.

 

The act basically states that the school must provide equal access to the Scouts, at no less favorable terms than the most favored group, if the school allows outside groups to meet in their designated open forum or designated limited open forum (open forum seems to mean during school hours, limited open forum seems to mean before or after school). So, if a school lets the Girl Scouts meet after school, the school must let the Boy Scouts meet after school. If the Girl Scouts are the most favored group and they only pay $50/hour rental and everyone else pays $75/hour, the school can only charge the Boy Scouts $50.

 

If the school allows no outside group to meet during school hours, it does not have to allow the BSA to meet during school hours. If the school allows no outside group to meet after hours, the school does not have to allow the BSA to meet after hours.

 

Schools may allow outside organizations in to speak if it advances their educational mission without obligating the school to allow the BSA in to recruit. For instance, a school can have a DARE speaker come in, and since it is part of their educational mission, it does not trigger the equal access provisions of the act.

 

Now comes the tricky part - literature distribution.

 

As I read the comments on the final rules (found here: http://www.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/finrule/2006-1/032406a.html) my understanding is that if the school allows a group that meets in the school's open or limited open forum to distribute literature, then it must allow the Boy Scouts to distribute literature - provided that the Boy Scouts have requested to be allowed to meet during the schools open or limited open forum. I take that to mean that if Pack 10 has requested to meet at the school but Pack 20 has not, and Outside Organization A, which meets at the school, passes out literature, than Pack 10 must be allowed to pass out information - but Pack 20 may not.

 

If none of the other organizations that meet at the school are allowed to pass out literature, then the act does not require the school to allow the Boy Scouts to pass out literature.

 

It's pretty clear that the Pack or Troop will need to request to meet during the schools Open or Limited Open Forum in order to pass out literature. If you are just Pack 20, have not made a request to meet, and want to pass out literature, the school has no obligation to allow you to do so, even if other outside organizations are allowed to do so. To further obfuscate, it appears that even if you have made a request to meet, the act doesn't force the school to allow you to distribute literature even if outside organizations are allowed to do so, if those outside organizations do not meet at the school, since those outside organizations would not be covered by the act.

 

One more obfuscation - the rules apparently suggest that if a PTA/PTO is affiliated with a school it may not neccessarily be considered an outside organization, and therefore may not be covered by the act. If this is the case, a schools PTA/PTO may pass out any literature it wants (with the school's consent of course) without triggering this act. The rules seem to be differentiating between "The School's PTA" and "The Neighboring School's PTA".

 

Confusing? So is government.

 

CalicoPenn

[ScoutMomAng]

"Unless you're going to bring something for the girls, too, the answer is no."

 

Sooooo call your local GS council and tell them to give you flyers for Girl Scouts in your school and you will get them to the school to be passed out to the girls!

 

However, since Cub Scouts is an ALL boy organization and GS is an ALL Girl Organization I think the local Girl Scout Council should be worrying about that school on their own but if they aren't then what would it hurt to help increase their numbers? If no girls come from it, then that is their problem not yours or the BSA's.

 

Just my 2 cents!